At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
ljadw
Member
Posts: 11728
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 05 Jan 2021 12:36

Erwinn wrote:
05 Jan 2021 11:47
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
03 Dec 2020 15:46
Erwinn wrote:
03 Dec 2020 06:15
Moving supplies to the front would be so much difficult and at that time in 1941 Red Army was really desperate for reinforcements.
You was write erwinn opinion and only erwinn opinion.

When you can to give some historical datas and evidences peoples can to analise datas for to decide erwinn opinion true or not true.
Erwinn wrote:
03 Dec 2020 06:15
1941 Moscow was really important to cripple Soviets,
You was write erwinn opinion and only erwinn opinion.

When you can to give some historical datas and evidences peoples can to analise datas for to decide erwinn opinion true or not true.

Erwinn wrote:
03 Dec 2020 06:15
Also Moscow was an ammunition manufacture center, losing it means those ammo needs to be supplied from somewhere else. Do you prefer to get supplied by the nearest Moscow or some thousand kms away Urals?
Also Kharkov and Leningrad was an tank manufacture center, losing it means those tank needs to be supplied from somewhere else. Do you prefer to get supplied by the nearest Kharkov and Leningrad or some thousand kms away Urals?

Why must peoples think ammunition manufactures was be mostest important on tank manufactures for to cripple Soviet union ?

Maybe you can to give some historical datas and evidences for to show ammunition manufacture was be so much important.
I don't need a Russian opinion on a matter which is clearly discussed a thousand times. How's my opinion is an idea and without any data and your claims based on, what? We're talking about 1941 Russia, not 42 or 43. They even had problems with manufacturing stuff in '42.

SU in 41 does not have massive amount of trucks which were delivered by LL.
SU in 44 had supply problem after massive breakthroughs and had to wait months for situation to stabilize. And this is with all those LL Trucks.

1 The SU stopped the Germans in 1941,without LL trucks
2 The Wallies also had supply problems in 1944 with their trucks. That was the reason for Market Garden .
Supply problems are decided/solved by railways, not by trucks : a train can carry 100 tons, a truck 1 or 2 .

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 371
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 05 Jan 2021 18:06

Erwinn wrote:
05 Jan 2021 11:47
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
03 Dec 2020 15:46
Erwinn wrote:
03 Dec 2020 06:15
Moving supplies to the front would be so much difficult and at that time in 1941 Red Army was really desperate for reinforcements.
You was write erwinn opinion and only erwinn opinion.

When you can to give some historical datas and evidences peoples can to analise datas for to decide erwinn opinion true or not true.
Erwinn wrote:
03 Dec 2020 06:15
1941 Moscow was really important to cripple Soviets,
You was write erwinn opinion and only erwinn opinion.

When you can to give some historical datas and evidences peoples can to analise datas for to decide erwinn opinion true or not true.

Erwinn wrote:
03 Dec 2020 06:15
Also Moscow was an ammunition manufacture center, losing it means those ammo needs to be supplied from somewhere else. Do you prefer to get supplied by the nearest Moscow or some thousand kms away Urals?
Also Kharkov and Leningrad was an tank manufacture center, losing it means those tank needs to be supplied from somewhere else. Do you prefer to get supplied by the nearest Kharkov and Leningrad or some thousand kms away Urals?

Why must peoples think ammunition manufactures was be mostest important on tank manufactures for to cripple Soviet union ?

Maybe you can to give some historical datas and evidences for to show ammunition manufacture was be so much important.
I don't need a Russian opinion on a matter which is clearly discussed a thousand times. How's my opinion is an idea and without any data and your claims based on, what? We're talking about 1941 Russia, not 42 or 43. They even had problems with manufacturing stuff in '42.
Nobody was need Turkey opinion on a matter when not have historical datas or evidences.

Holocaust was deny 1.000 times. 1.000 times deny not mean holocaust was not be on history.
Holodomor was deny 1.000 times. 1.000 times deny not mean holodomor was not be on history.
Genocide on Armenian was deny 1.000 times. 1.000 times deny not mean genocide on Armenian was not be on history.

Peoples can to discuss 1.000.000.000.000 times and not mean something must to be true.

Erwinn can to discuss 1.000 times
Erwinn wrote:
03 Dec 2020 06:15
1941 Moscow was really important to cripple Soviets,
and not mean must to be true.

When erwinn can to give some historical datas or evidences then peoples can to analyse and can to decide when erwinn opinion can to be true or false.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 9295
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Jan 2021 11:30

Hi ljadw,

You post, "1 The SU stopped the Germans in 1941, without LL trucks." True. though the 500,000 L-L motor vehicles certainly speeded up its later advances.

You post, " 2 The Wallies also had supply problems in 1944 with their trucks. That was the reason for Market Garden." No. the supply problem was not with their trucks, it was that the Germans had often had the single road they had to use under fire, or blocked. That was a tactical problem that impacted on logistics.

You post, "Supply problems are decided/solved by railways, not by trucks : a train can carry 100 tons, a truck 1 or 2." This is not an either/or situation. Railways are best for bulk carriage over distance. However, they do not run everywhere, unlike the road system. This is particularly so the further East one goes. In 1944 in Western Europe, where Allied bombing had paralyzed the French railway system and large numbers of trucks were available, the breakout from Normandy to the German border was sustained by trucks alone. (See the Red Ball Express).

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 11728
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2021 12:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Jan 2021 11:30
Hi ljadw,

You post, "1 The SU stopped the Germans in 1941, without LL trucks." True. though the 500,000 L-L motor vehicles certainly speeded up its later advances.

You post, " 2 The Wallies also had supply problems in 1944 with their trucks. That was the reason for Market Garden." No. the supply problem was not with their trucks, it was that the Germans had often had the single road they had to use under fire, or blocked. That was a tactical problem that impacted on logistics.

You post, "Supply problems are decided/solved by railways, not by trucks : a train can carry 100 tons, a truck 1 or 2." This is not an either/or situation. Railways are best for bulk carriage over distance. However, they do not run everywhere, unlike the road system. This is particularly so the further East one goes. In 1944 in Western Europe, where Allied bombing had paralyzed the French railway system and large numbers of trucks were available, the breakout from Normandy to the German border was sustained by trucks alone. (See the Red Ball Express).

Cheers,


Sid.
The Red Ball Express was activated only on August 25 ,the reason being the unexpected fast allied advance which could not be sustained by the railways .And the Red Ball Express failed (its maximum was only 12500 tons a day ) ,the Allies were not in Berlin in 1944.When the railways were operational again (from September on) they also failed .
About MG : it failed because the ground forces were too weak and needed the intervention of the airborne .Why were they too weak ?Because for their supplies they depended mainly on trucks who could supply only a small number of divisions .
The ground forces needed trucks, tanks,artillery, fuel, heavy ammunition,bridging equipment...and these things could not be transported by trucks, but only by trains .It would take weeks to transport by truck the needed supplies for MG ,and Montgomery had no weeks.
MG started with a heavy artillery bombardment , a lot of tons of ammunition ,and trucks could not bring them from Normandy to the Dutch-Belgian border.

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