If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage?

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
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wm
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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 10 Jul 2020 23:25

The Polish Orthodox Jews produced children by the dozen, they would be no shortage of real Jews.
Real because the Soviet Jews were Jewish in the Hitlerian sense by blood, by genes. The Polish Jews were Jewish thanks to their Jewish culture.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 11 Jul 2020 19:02

Did all of the Soviet Orthodox Jews become secularized?

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by gebhk » 12 Jul 2020 14:41

One should be careful not to equate ethnicity with religion. This was a distinction made in pre-war Poland:
Narodowosc/pochodznie zydowska/zydowskie (mationality/ancestry Jewish)
Wyznanie mojzeszowe (Faith of Moses)

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 12 Jul 2020 18:11

Futurist wrote:
11 Jul 2020 19:02
Did all of the Soviet Orthodox Jews become secularized?
Of course, although there were some exceptions for older folks and people with balls.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 13 Jul 2020 04:55

Would the same fate have befallen the Polish Orthodox Jews en masse had the Soviet Union successfully managed to conquer all of Poland back in 1920?

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 13 Jul 2020 18:45

Certainly, it was the sole purpose of Yevsektsiya.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 13 Jul 2020 19:34

So, there would have subsequently been a lot of Polish-Jewish intermarriage in a scenario where Poland would have fallen under Communist rule in 1920?

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by gebhk » 16 Jul 2020 15:39

Difficult to say. I suspect geography would would have been a significant factor. Contrary to what one would have thought, the genetic makeup of groups settling in even relatively isolated and even relatively small areas remained resistant to change for many hundreds of years, even though cultural heritage had long been forgotten - such areas can even be found in the UK today. Given the Soviet system's disinclination to allow its folk to move freely about the place and the very poor state of communications in many parts of interbellum Poland, such limitations may well have applied to rural areas of a Soviet-infested Poland of the 1920s-30s.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 16 Jul 2020 18:23

I don't think there would have been much intermarriage. The Jewish strong support for communism/socialism, and on the other hand the strong Polish patriotism and conservatism would create huge animosity between both groups.

You know what Jan Karski wrote about exactly such a development twenty years later:
In principle, however, and in their mass, the Jews have created here a situation in which the Poles regard them as devoted to the Bolsheviks and - one can safely say - wait for the moment when they will be able simply to take revenge upon the Jews. Virtually all Poles are bitter and disappointed in relation to the Jews; the overwhelming majority [first among them of course the youth] literally look forward to an opportunity for "repayment in blood."
Last edited by wm on 16 Jul 2020 19:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 16 Jul 2020 18:50

What year did Karski write that in?

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 16 Jul 2020 18:54

1940

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 16 Jul 2020 21:24

What about the month?

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 17 Jul 2020 10:03

The entire text was written and edited for two years but concerned itself with 1940 and the end of 1939.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 17 Jul 2020 18:33

More in this vein:
Ringelblum Archive, volume 3
31 October 1941,
Warsaw, ghetto.
Anonymous testimony of a 20-year-old refugee from Warsaw
recorded by Yekhiel Gorny,
concerning the situation of the Jews in Grodno under Soviet occupation.
The life of the Jews in Soviet-occupied territories, according to a twenty-year-old Polish Jewish girl, arrived from Grodno,

The situation of Jews in the Polish territories occupied by the Soviets was very good. With innate cleverness and ability, they were able to live most comfortably.

When the Bolsheviks entered the Polish territory, they approached the large Polish population with distrust, while they were fully trusting of the Jews. More influential Poles and those who held important positions before the war were deported into Russia by the Bolsheviks, and all offices were manned mostly by the Jews, who also held managerial positions. For these reasons, the Polish population generally immediately responded with hostility.  

The Poles, however, could not find any outlet for that hate, so they swallowed it and suppressed it inside themselves. It should be noted that to a large extent it was the Jews themselves who provoked that hatred, because as soon as the Russian troops entered, they started to show the Poles their disdain and humiliated them. The Jews greeted the arrival of the Bolsheviks with great joy - hence-forth they felt proud and safe, almost as masters of the situation, and they were condescending and arrogant towards the Poles, often reminding them of their impotence and taunting them with it.

In Grodno, there were many such incidents, for example when a Polish woman came to a Jewish peddler to buy vegetables, the latter would tell her,
"You, Polak, get out of here, I don't want to see you here".
Many Jews who took every opportunity to remind the Poles with satisfaction that the times when they had something to say were over, and they needed to obey the Soviet power.

The economic situation of the Jews in the occupied territories was much better than that of the Polish population. While the Poles had to work hard to earn a living, the Jews manned all the important positions and were employed to do lighter work. Poles were mostly employed in factories and collective farms, and Jews preferred to work as clerks in stores, as shop assistants, and so on.
Are you impressed, Futurist?
Naive liberalism stops here, that was the bloody reality.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 17 Jul 2020 19:40

Well, yeah, perhaps collaborating with the Soviet regime in eastern Poland wasn't exactly the smartest move on the part of these Jews. Generally, joining and supporting Communist movements was NOT a smart move for Jews since it might have very well resulted in even more gentile hostility towards them. :(

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