Battle of Brody

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unsere666
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Battle of Brody

Post by unsere666 » 03 Jan 2019 15:50

Hi all, my first post begins with an ask, was Brody battle most large/intense than the famous Battle of Prokhorovka.?
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Aleksej Brusilov
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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Aleksej Brusilov » 03 Jan 2019 19:44

Hi, interesting subject. Yes, in terms of tanks it was. However it depends on what you define as a battle. Most of the soviet tanks broke down, so they didn't enter the battle. But it was defiently large and comparable with Prokhorovkha.

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Aleksej Brusilov » 03 Jan 2019 19:54

Hi, great question.

In terms of tank present, Brody was defiently comparable, however; most soviet tanks broke down before they reached the battlefield. A great book on the subject is "Tank warfare on the eastern front 1941-1942" by Robert Forczyk.

Best regards / Brusilov

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by AriX » 03 Jan 2019 21:23

Yes, it was. Most of the info about Battle for Prokhorovka is just a soviet WW2 myth.

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Cult Icon » 03 Jan 2019 22:33

Yes, Prokhorovka was not that big.

This is a decent book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Triangle- ... y+triangle

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Christianmunich » 03 Jan 2019 23:04

The answer for this seems to hinge on how people define battle and "biggest". I would like to add that in terms of "intensity" Prokhorvka was likely the biggest tank battle ever. Hundreds of tanks in a pretty small area with hundreds of casualties.

You likely can find arguments for both. I would argue Prokhorovka saw even more "tank on tank" kills which is kinda what people imagine when they hear tank battles.

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Cult Icon » 03 Jan 2019 23:23

Christianmunich wrote:
03 Jan 2019 23:04
You likely can find arguments for both. I would argue Prokhorovka saw even more "tank on tank" kills which is kinda what people imagine when they hear tank battles.
2nd Battle of Targu Frumos was of similar if not greater magnitude. SSLAH at Prokhorovka and G.D at Targu Frumos are pretty much the WW2 record holders for tank kills in one short battle.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=10353&start=120

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by unsere666 » 04 Jan 2019 02:06

Thanks. Very useful.

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Christianmunich » 04 Jan 2019 12:39

Cult Icon I glanced over the linked thread. Frumos appears to be, while a huge battle, still behind in level of intensity compared to Prohkorovka.

Would be an interesting subject of research. Battles with the highest amount of "tank on tank" knock outs. Where did the most tanks actual clash with other tanks?

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Cult Icon » 04 Jan 2019 14:22

Christianmunich wrote:
04 Jan 2019 12:39
Cult Icon I glanced over the linked thread. Frumos appears to be, while a huge battle, still behind in level of intensity compared to Prohkorovka.
In what way? IIRC Targu Frumos had two tank armies attacking, supported by two combined arms armies. On the Axis side, the armored tank to tank fighting component was largely of G.D, 24.Pz, and 3.SST. The two Soviet tank armies combined had armor at the same level as 5th Tank Army at Prohkorovka. In both battles one German division knocked out most of the armor of the other.

The summer of 43' (July 1943- Sept 1943) was the period with the greatest concentration of tank to tank fighting in WW2.

There were numerous big armored clashes in the early war 41-42, however they involved mass disintegration of Soviet units (like at Brody), which is different from a predominantly tank to tank battle. The 5th Tank Army against Blau I and the 1st Tank Army in the Don Bend 1942 comes to mind.

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Christianmunich » 04 Jan 2019 17:21

Cult Icon wrote:
04 Jan 2019 14:22
Christianmunich wrote:
04 Jan 2019 12:39
Cult Icon I glanced over the linked thread. Frumos appears to be, while a huge battle, still behind in level of intensity compared to Prohkorovka.
In what way?
Losses and especially loses/time.

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Cult Icon » 04 Jan 2019 17:32

tank knock outs were around the same level- . Targu Frumos' tank to tank action was heavily concentrated in clashes with G.D. and two small armored battlegroups of the 24.Pz over certain time slots spanning two days (the subsequent days being a denouement). I've never spent time to make a comparison but it couldn't be that different.

Further references on the battle is covered in "Red Storm over the Balkans" (Glantz) and "Panzerkorps G.D. volume II".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Prokhorovka

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Christianmunich » 04 Jan 2019 21:44

Russian losses at Prokhorovka appear substantially higher, do I miss something?

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by unsere666 » 05 Jan 2019 02:09

Gentlemen, I have read very thoroughly, about the events in Romania, I am amazed at the capacity of damage that the Grossdoutschland still had. Is it possible that they had 40 Panthers + 40 Tigers in full operation?

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Re: Battle of Brody

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Jan 2019 05:50

Christianmunich wrote:
04 Jan 2019 21:44
Russian losses at Prokhorovka appear substantially higher, do I miss something?
I wrote in my note (in that thread) that the Soviets had 227 write-offs in armor. (from Glantz' book, soviet records) Afterwards, there were other contributions that may have been different. I need to re-read that thread myself. The Germans reported in the region of 400 armor kills, similar to Prokhorovka.

@unsere:

IIRC G.D. launched counterattacks right after the failed offensive that extended their holdings of the battleground- so their knocked out tanks remained theirs and the soviets had a lot of write-offs.

The 40-40 was not accurate (the real numbers are somewhere in that thread. I also have Jung's "Panzerregiment G.D. that has figures".). Mantuffeul taught this battle as a case study and his memory of what tanks he had wasn't accurate.

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