First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 30 Aug 2005 20:36

And everybody, take a very deep breath. There is no need to get personal over this issue, quite apart from the fact that it is in violation of forum rules.

If you post claims, you are expected to be able to support them. Looking for the sources is also helpful in cooling off.

All the best

Andreas

Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 30 Aug 2005 21:42

Andreas wrote:Looking for the sources is also helpful in cooling off.
Agreed 100%

This thread really needs an look of sources with credibility. The claims posted here are unbelievable, and defy everything that is common knowledge.

Sorry, i myself got little overboard but these claims of Germans producing HEU during WW2, or their ability to when ever they want to build nuclear bomb really got me overboard, as there is not even an single shred of evidence to back up those claims, nor never will be.

Lets stick to what can be proven.


Regards, Mark V

Himmelssäule
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Post by Himmelssäule » 31 Aug 2005 07:27

The text I mentioned is interesting in the following point:

"A further reducation in the critical mass is possible by replacing the high explosive with fast moving projectiles ! For light gas gun driven projectiles with a veliocity of - 10 km/s, the critical mass is estimated to be 0,25 g, and for magnetically accelerated 25 km/s projectiles it is as small as - 0,05 g !" 8O

Friedwardt Winterberg, "Mini Fission-Fusion-Fission Explosions (Mini-Nukes). A Third Way Towards the Controlled Release of Nuclear Energy by Fission and Fusion", in: Newspaper for natural sience A, Contents Vol. 59a, Number 6 (2004), p. 325-326.

http://www.znaturforsch.com/59a/59a0325.pdf


Greetings


P.S.:

The following text is also very interesting - excuse me that I only found it in german - maybe google can translate it ?!?

http://www.faz.net/s/RubA330E54C3C12410 ... ntent.html

http://www.zeit-fragen.ch/ARCHIV/ZF_127d/T04.HTM

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 31 Aug 2005 09:05

A translation of the conclusion of the FAZ review of Karlsch's book (it was this review that the letter to the editor I mentioned reacted to).
Das Buch unterstreicht eindringlich und vom Autor völlig unbeabsichtigt die These, nach der das NS-Regime strukturell unfähig war, ein technisches Großprojekt unter den Anforderungen der Moderne - und zwar auf allen Ebenen - voranzutreiben. Während am Manhattan-Projekt 160 000 Physiker und Fachleute beteiligt waren, bastelten (was man buchstäblich nehmen kann) eine Handvoll deutscher Physiker an den verschiedensten Orten und unter den abenteuerlichsten Bedingungen daran, "Hitlers Bombe" möglich zu machen. Es kann in der Tat keine Rede davon sein, daß die Hauptbeteiligten aus ethischen Gründen genau dies zu verhindern gesucht hätten. Später haben die meisten wohl schlechten Gewissens die "Göttinger Erklärung" unterschrieben. Einer nicht: Kurt Diebner.
"The book underlines clearly, and unintentionally, the thesis that the Nazi regime was structurally incapable to progress a large-scale technical project under the demands of modernity, on all levels. While 160,000 physicists and experts worked on the Manhattan project, a handful of German physicists tinkered (this is meant literally) at different locations and under the most incredible conditions on enabling "Hitler's Bomb". It can really not be said that the main protagonists tried to block this for ethical reasons. Later most of them signed the "Göttingen Declaration" with a probably guilty conscience. One did not: Kurt Diebner."

All the best

Andreas

Himmelssäule
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Post by Himmelssäule » 31 Aug 2005 15:17

"Es gibt Physiker und physikalische Anstalten, die Karlschs Thesen bestätigen, andere bestreiten sie. Am 12. Oktober 1944 auf Rügen, am 3. März 1945 in Ohrdruf unter der formalen Leitung der SS (Hans Kammler) seien zwei nukleare Explosionen ausgelöst worden; letztere habe Hunderte von Menschenleben gefordert. Gerade deswegen hätten alle Beteiligten über Farm Hall (das englische Internierungslager für deutsche Atomforscher) hinaus bis zu ihrem Lebensende sich gehütet, davon zu sprechen. Diese Behauptung ist Höhe- und Endpunkt des Buches zugleich.
Einige Indizien (Bodenproben) sprechen für, andere gegen diese nuklearen Ereignisse. Die Phalanx der heutigen deutschen Atomphysiker scheint sich nur in einem Punkt einig zu sein: Was, wenn überhaupt, immer da explodierte, eine Atombombe vom Typ Hiroshima war es nicht, denn es ist unbestritten, daß den Deutschen die dafür benötigte Menge hochangereicherten Urans 235 nicht zur Verfügung stand. Vielleicht aber war es eine nach dem Hohlladungsprinzip gezündete kleine "Atomgranate" (Karlsch in einem Interview), vermutlich vom Typ einer Neutronenwaffe. Weitere Untersuchungen seien notwendig, dies der einhellige Tenor der Fachleute."
http://www.faz.net/s/RubA330E54C3C12410 ... ntent.html


The point of the mentioned book is that the author undermines the theory, that Germany was not able to built a bomb like the "Hiroshima - type" - but they were able to built a little bomb detonated by a hollow explosive charge ! 8O

To this possibilty is this site

http://www.znaturforsch.com/59a/59a0325.pdf


refering.


Greetings

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 31 Aug 2005 15:46

Himmelssäule wrote:"Die Phalanx der heutigen deutschen Atomphysiker scheint sich nur in einem Punkt einig zu sein: Was, wenn überhaupt, immer da explodierte, eine Atombombe vom Typ Hiroshima war es nicht, denn es ist unbestritten, daß den Deutschen die dafür benötigte Menge hochangereicherten Urans 235 nicht zur Verfügung stand. Vielleicht aber war es eine nach dem Hohlladungsprinzip gezündete kleine "Atomgranate" (Karlsch in einem Interview), vermutlich vom Typ einer Neutronenwaffe. Weitere Untersuchungen seien notwendig, dies der einhellige Tenor der Fachleute."

The point of the mentioned book is that the author undermines the theory, that Germany was not able to built a bomb like the "Hiroshima - type" - but they were able to built a little bomb detonated by a hollow explosive charge ! 8O
The book may say that, but the reviewer does not agree.

"The phalanx of todays nuclear physicists seems to be united on one point only: what (if anything did) exploded there, it was no nuclear bomb of the Hiroshima type, because there is no doubt that the Germans did not have the required amount of highly enriched U235 available. Maybe it was a small "nuclear grenade" (Karlsch in an interview) fused on the hollow charge principle, similar to a neutron bomb. Further inquiry is necessary, that is the unisome opinion of the experts."

All the best

Andreas

Himmelssäule
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Post by Himmelssäule » 31 Aug 2005 16:34

"Further inquiry is necessary, that is the unisome opinion of the experts"

8O

So comon search would be the best !

This

http://www.znaturforsch.com/59a/59a0325.pdf

should help !




Greetings

Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 31 Aug 2005 17:25

because there is no doubt that the Germans did not have the required amount of highly enriched U235 available.
I AGREE, but it seems that not all do.

M.Rausch craracter, an perfect representative of nuclear-revisionists, believes that Germany produced highly enriched Uranium during WW2. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Maybe it was a small "nuclear grenade" (Karlsch in an interview) fused on the hollow charge principle, similar to a neutron bomb.
The neutron bomb is actually an reality (which is much more than most of the "info" in this thread). It is normal small-yield fission device heavily boosted with D-T mixture. It has nothing to do with fantasy of exotic high implosion velocity devices.

Yeah, the Germans didn't satisfy with normal nuke. They were capable of producing ultra-modern mini-nuke already in 1945 !! :roll: Same time when they weren't capable of producing even one gram of bomb material. It is UNBELIEVABLE to what lenghts the "believers" will go...

In reality Germany in 1945 was not much advanced from 1939-41 (when they had respectable knowledge). They just fell behind because lack of political influence of people involved in program. Lack of spare material resources to be used in development of an weapon as uncertain as nuclear weapon was. And some serious mistakes of scientists - the Graphite being the most crucial.

Germany used the most part of WW2 with futile tinkering with Heavy water, same time when US leapfrogged to full-scale manufacturing of Pu and HEU simultaneously.

During the twilight of 3rd Reich there was nothing significant happening in nuclear weapons department. No evidence, other than "nuclear-revisionists" rumours and fantasies...

German nuclear scientists lived in huts, and they had some kilograms of natural U metal and Heavy water available. Those suckers - did they believe they could build something usable from those materials ??

....actually Germany was an 3rd World country in nuclear matters at that time. Canada was way, way ahead of them. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The experiments Germans made in 1944-45 would had been laughable to Los Alamos scientists if they would had had knowledge of them. After all, those men really tinkered with criticality in 1945, having the "real stuff" in their laboratories....


Regards, Mark V

Himmelssäule
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Post by Himmelssäule » 31 Aug 2005 19:43

@ Mark V

Excuse me that it is in german - but this could really help you !!! :idea:

http://www.zeit-fragen.ch/ARCHIV/ZF_127d/T04.HTM


Greetings

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Post by Himmelssäule » 01 Sep 2005 19:14


Ottens
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Post by Ottens » 02 Sep 2005 13:22

Mark V, what you claim regarding the German nuclear research is incorrect.

Dr. Samuel Goudsmit was the head of the US intelligence mission to Europe codenamed ALSOS, whos objective was to discover to what extent the Nazis had been working on an atomic weapon. In his book "ALSOS - The Failure in German Science" (New York, 1947), there appears a sketch of the zenith of German scientists' achievement in the field. The same diagram appears in the book authoured by Lt. Leslie Groves, military chief of the Manhattan Project. Both Goudsmit and Groves stated that the diagram and photos represent "the German atom bomb". (drawing and photograph)

The bomb was an aluminium sphere, about the size of a medicine ball, and had a tall chimney. The latter enabled the radium-beryllium radio-active source to be introduced into the core of the reaction. Within the sphere was layered alternately natural uranium powder (551 kilos) and paraffin wax.

The Nobel Prize winner Professor Heisenberg was looked to as the pioneering genius of Germany's atomic project. This was outwardly aimed at building a working atomic pile, a target which had not been reached by the end of hostilities five years later. The excuse offered was that there was not enough heavy water available for the final successful experiment. Since Heisenberg's assistant Dr Karl Wirtz stated in his 1987 book "Im Umkreis der Physik" that there was easily enough heavy water in aggregate to moderate a nuclear pile in 1944, and he could not understand the reluctance to go ahead and do so, our attentions are drawn to the possibility that the heavy water was needed in another area.

As he admitted, Heisenberg's experiments B-III and L-IV at Leipzig made calculations regarding the effectiveness of paraffin wax as a barrier and measured the capture of neutrons by U-238 uranium material after they had been emitted by the radioactive source and been slowed by passage through heavy water. Dr. Flannen, a US physicist, explained in an internet article that these two experiments could only be explained if the aim was to design not a reactor, but a bomb.

By 1941 the Germans knew that isotopes of U-238 in capturing neutrons became transformed into isotopes of plutonium, and Heisenberg was measuring where most such transformations took place. This would not be of much interest for reactor technology, but would be vital if building a bomb. The paraffin wax would have a function as a bomb part in connection with a technical problem associated with plutonium isotopes.

In June 1942 at Leipzig, Heisenberg placed within an aluminium sphere about 750 kilos of natural uranium, placed a concentric sphere of heavy water at its centre, dropped the radioactive source down the chimney and sat back. Five weeks later there was a disastrous fire and the experiment was terminated. But - what was this experiment intended to prove?

The United States invested hundreds of millions of dollars into uranium enrichment plants and plutonium breeder reactors. Germany, under heavy aerial bombardment and on a tight budget, could never have competed. What was needed was a nuclear device of small magnitude which could be mass-produced at small cost.

When an aluminium sphere of natural uranium powder is left to breed in the manner of Heisenberg's device, within about two years the plutonium bred by U-238 capturing neutrons exceeds the figure of 7%. This is the magic figure for a nuclear explosion of some sort.

If several hundred such spheres were left to breed for two years in mid-1942, by late 1944 Germany would have had a small arsenal of little nuclear devices. All that was needed would be some means of setting them off.

----

Upon the success of the Blitzkrieg, the budget for the nuclear research was cut in favour of the construction of more conventional weapons. In the later years and months of the war, however, top Nazi leaders were eager to believe in "wonder weapons" that could turn the war in their favour.

The nuclear bomb research project, however, would not have been able to produce a fully-working atom bomb by the time. The scientists simply required far more time to produce such a product. However, what they could produce was a so-called "dirty bomb" filled with nuclear material that, upon detonation, would leave the site of detonation radio-active for the duration of weeks, perhaps even months. When plutonium were added to the mix, the site of detonation would be radio-active for even years.

----

The target was London. If Britain could be forced out of the war, even in late 1944 there was still a slim chance of success for Germany. The obvious means of delivering the weapons on London was the V-2 rocket. The little bombs weighed less than a ton, and could fit easily into the space for the V-2 warhead. There was no need for tonnes of conventional explosive to explode the device - the rocket hit the ground at 3,500 per second. This speed was fast enough to assemble the plutonium-enriched uranium material into a critical mass. In the split-second before the reaction collapsed, the resulting blast would be in the region of 20 tonnes TNT with nuclear fallout. The paraffin wax prevented the unstable plutonium isotope Pu 240 from reacting too smartly and so ruin the nuclear reaction.

How long could London have withstood two or three such rockets fired on London every day? Each crater region would be unapproachable for years, maybe decades. The effect of the fallout need not be mentioned. No surprise then, that Lt. Gen Putt, Deputy Head of United States Air Force Intelligence, should state shortly after the war that if the invasion of Europe had been delayed by six months, the course of the war would have been changed, for Germany had "rocket surprises in store for the whole world in general and England in particular".

The range of a V-2 was 200 miles. In June 1944, London was in range from anywhere along the French and Belgian coasts. Six months after the invasion - December 1944 - the German front line was far back from this 200 mile point. The Germans had no intermediate rocket to hit London from Germany - the critical failure of German science. Hence the need for the Ardennes Campaign to recapture Antwerp which is 200 miles from London. Hence the increased budget in advanced rocket technology, more "wonder weapons", that could have reached London, perhaps even America, upon launch from German soil.

----

Note that this weapon cannot be called a nuclear device in the sense of it being an atomic explosive. The Americans decided in 1944 that the term "nuclear device" or "atom bomb" should not be applied to any nuclear explosive with an equivalent yield less than 500 tons TNT. The yield of the V-2 warhead would not have exceeded 30 tons TNT or so. If you have a conventional explosive to scatter radioactive dust, that weapon is a radiological device. Similarly the weapon described would have used the effects of meltdown as a localized radiological weapon.

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Post by Andreas » 02 Sep 2005 16:20

Here is a list of reports currently archived (as copies) in the municipal library of Haigerloch, Germany. They should give an overview to those who understand more about the topic than I do of how far the German scientists had come:

http://www.haigerloch.de/stadt/atomkell ... chnis.html

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Post by Andreas » 02 Sep 2005 16:24

This article claims that the Germans got a centrifuge system going, but that there was an explosion in March 1945.

http://www.celle-im-nationalsozialismus ... chung.html

I caution regarding its reliability, however.

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Post by kps » 09 Sep 2005 13:20

Himmelssäule wrote: Here some links - I will search for more information and tell you - I thought this forum could tell me news !?!

http://www.gtgj.de/index4.html
Hello, thanks for the link to our Jonastalverein platform. But there is no information for pro german atomic bomb. We collected mostly newspaper articles for this topic and other thinks related to Jonastal, S III and so on.

I think there is no proof/ fact for a nuclear test near by Ohrdruf. We spook with the author Rainer Karlsch from “Hitlers Bombe” and other experts for different parts for two month. In the next days we will published the main facts from the “First Ohrdrufer Conversation” in our club journal (but only in german – sorry). Was there an explosion? It could be happend ...but why an nucleare explosion?
ohrdruf wrote:Allied files on Ohrdruf are closed for a minimum of 100 years, which suggests the importance of the location.
Where is the evidence/ source for this statement?
ohrdruf wrote:According to the DDR documents, it seems clear that some kind of extraordinary explosive substance was tested at Ohrdruf on 4th and 12th March 1945 and that an A9/10 30-metre long rocket was test fired there later that same month.
Which documents give you this “facts”? The big rocket is another theme. The german had a lot of problems with the little rocket A4 and this rocket was not reliably. The german could a lot of thinks but this A10 project was only on paper – not started from Thuringia.
ohrdruf wrote:Patton's 3rd Army took the Ohrdruf region around 7th April 1945. Patton was surprised at the level of resistance he encountered, and at the fact that the Germans had put up veteran SS mountain troops to oppose him. This was 6th SS Division "Nord". These troops were used to gain time to blow up the underground installations at Ohrdruf.
Patton's 3rd Army took the soldier test area (Truppenübungslatz), the prisoner camp and parts of Ohrdruf in the evening of the 4th April 1945. The whole 6th SS division was not in Thuringia – probably some separated soldiers. We find for this no evidence. Some interpretations of the war diary of the Wehrmacht are wrong - my opinion.
M.Rausch wrote:In winter 1942/43 a test with an Uranium bomb was done in the Erzgebirge, but it failed. This was no surprise, since the critical mass was calculated as only 10% of the mass really needed.
Interessting – which source?

have a nice day and with kind regards from Thuringia
kps

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Ottens
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Post by Ottens » 10 Sep 2005 14:07

kps,


Concerning the 100-year classification:

It is curious that, after more than 55 years, despite the rules respecting automatic declassification of documents, much of the archive material relating to the cargo of the German submarine U-234 still has not been made public. In 1985, American journlist Robert K. Wilcox wrote: "Inquiries to government agencies have produced nothing. It is as if the incident never occurred, as if the U-234, its important passengers and cargo, enver arrives". British rocket engineer Philip Henshall wrote in 1995: "Despite requests made to the US naval authorities, the reply has always been that matters relating to nuclear affairs are still subject to official secrecy".

Anybody who thinks this is legal should examine American law itself. (Opinion of Alaskan lawyer Sidney Trevethan, title 552 section (a) sub-sections (3) and (6)(A) USCA, in "The Controversial Cargo of U-234", Revision 13, January 1999.) In the United States, a request to a government agency must be answered within ten days, and if denied a reason given. The courts have ruled that the Freedom of Information Act is to be broadly construed in favour of disclosure, and its exemptions are to be "narrowly constued".

Where a matter is to be "kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy" pursuant to an Executive Order, then the section relating to disclosure does not apply. If this exemption is being used secretly after 55 years, there must have been something extraorindary indeed about the heavy little case of uranium on board the German submarine U-234. These is no blanket exemption by which nuclear matters generally are still subject to secrecy, anrd many formerly Top Secret documents in the matter have been declassified.


Concerning the A9/A10 rocket:

Although the V-2 was conceived as a long-range weapon for use for mobile launch sites, in the summer of 1943 a huge assembly and storage bunker with a concrete roof seven metres thick was begun at Watten south-west of Dunkirk. On 27 August and 8 September 1943, it was hit by 484 heavy bombs and destroyed. A massive new bunker complex estending over five hectares at Wizernes near St Omer survived all efforts to destroy it and was operational until Allied forces overran the area in 1944.

The British rocket scientist Philip Henshall stated that ehse monumental bunkers were capable of launching not only the V-2 but all projected developments including the gigantic A9/A19 two-stage inter-continential rocket which was 26 metres in length and nine metres wide across the tail assembly.

Measurements provded that the working height inside each silo could accommodate the porjected A9/A10 rocket minus its warhead. He considered that Watten was completely self-contained and impregnable from the exterior by virtue of its massive armoured doors, while at both locations the 23-feet thick lid forming the drome to the structures could not be penetrated by any known bomb even hitting directly. Since the greater part of the concrete construction were bunkers and silos, none of which were necessary for launching V-2 rockets, the actual purpose must have been to store nuclear materials and house the A9/A10 "New Yorker".

In November 1944, according to Otto Skorzeny, all the walk was of "a dreadful weapon based on artificially bred radioactivity." (Otto Skorzeny, "Meine Kommandounternehmen", Universitas, 1993) Such talk stemmed from among his own SS colleagues. But it was just talk. The budgetary restrictions, the diversification and exerpimentation into other interesting rockets and guided missiles, the invasion of Normandy and the time required to mass-produce a huge stock of the V-4 atomic explosives unsured that nothing would come of the weapon for American on which Hitler was pissing all his hopes. By the time they were finally ready even London was out of range.


Concerning the "extraordinary explosive substance" tested at Ohrdruf:

The four items of literature appearing to relate to the explosive tested at Ohrdruf in March 1945 are as follows:

a. British Security Coordination (BSC) was the largest integrated intelligence network enterprise in history. Its Director was Sir William Stevenson, a Canadian industrialist. His code-name was "Intrepid". In his autobiography (A Man Called Intrepid, Sphere Books, 1977), Stevenson relates (P.414): "One of the BSC agents submitted a report, sealed and stamped THIS IS OF PARTICULAR SECRECY which told of "...liquid air bombs being developed in Germany... of terrific destructive effect."

The reader should not be misled into thinking that these were modern common-or-garden "liquid air bombs": Stevenson noted that they were "as powerful as rockets with atomic warheads".

b. The book "German Secret Weapons" (Ballantyne Press, UK, also Libr. Edit. San Martin, Madrid, 1975) was authored by Brian Ford (military scientist), Barrie Pitt (academic historian) and Capt Sir Basil Liddell Hart (military historian). At page 28, the text states:

"...The Whirlwind Bomb produced an artificial hurricane of fire and is absolutely authentic even though it may seem improbable. The explosive was developed and tested by Dr. Zippermayr at Lofer, an experimental Luftwaffe institute in the Tyrol. The explosive was pulverzied coal dust and liquid air. Its effect was sufficient to create an artificial typhoon and was intended initially as an anti-aircraft weapon able to destroy aircraft by excessive turbulence. The effective radius of action was 914 metres..."

c. This is a 4-page declassified US Intelligence document of the Zalzburg Detachment of the US Forces Austria Counter-Intelligence Corps, describing Dr. Zippermayr was interrogated at Lofer on August 3, 1945. His laboratories were established at Lofer with head office at Weimarerstrasse 87, Vienna. Staff was 35, work financed by RLM and under direction of Chef der Technischen Luftruestung.

Zippermayr worked on three projects of which one was the Enzian/Schmetterling anti-aircraft rockets "charged with a coal dust explosive so strong that the concussion could break the wings of a bomber." This item "was proved successful by August 1943, but orders for its production were not issued until March 9, 1945..."

d. This item is an extract from BIOS (British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee) Final Report 142(g) "Information Obtained from Targets of Opportunity in the Sonthofen Area, (HMSO London).

The report states that during 1944, an explosive mixture of 60% liquid air and 40% finely powdered coal dust invented by Dr. Mario Zippermayr was tested at Doeberitz explosives ground near Berlin, and was found to be very destructive over a radius of up to 600 metres.

Waffen-SS scientists then became involved and added some kind of waxy substance to the explosive. The bombs had to be filled immediately prior to the aircraft taking off. Bombs of 25 and 50 kgs were dropped on Starnberger See and photos taken. Standartenfuehrer Klemm showed these to Brandt (Himmler's scientific adviser). The intensive explosion covered an area up to 4.5 kms radius.

This waxy substance was a reagent of some kind which was said to interact with air during the development of the explosion, causing it to change its composition and so create meteorological change in the atmosphere. A lightning storm at ground level consumes all the available oxygen. Goering's statement upon his arrest in May 1945 is significant: he claimed to have led a revolt against Luftwaffe use of a bomb "which could have destroyed all civilisation." The bomb was not a nuclear weapon, and it appears to have been a conventional explosive which used a reagent or catalyst produced by Tesla methodology or similar for its inexplicable effect.

Some interpretations of the war diary of the Wehrmacht are wrong - my opinion.
The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW, High Command) and Luftwaffe war diaries and all copies of them for the period March 1945 have disappeared and are suspected to be in American keeping.

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