Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

[Peter89]

Hello All :

Recently, Mr. Nota has come under criticism by some for the format, syntax,
and punctuation of his postings. Mr. Nota is NOT a newcomer to this forum, in
fact, he has been a contributor since 2006, more than sixteen years. While
at times his postings may seem somewhat opaque, I have been able to work
them out with little or no trouble, and they present some interesting ideas.

I am reminded of the late Neal Cassady, who served as the model for Jack
Kerouac's semi-fictional character Dean Moriarty. Cassady spoke in what can
only be described as a non stop, Stream of Consciousness flow of words and ideas.

Many people back in the 1960s, who were in what what we called the Straight
Community, could not understand him. But those of us who listened to what
he had to say, realized he was brilliant in his understanding of the world and
society around him.

As Driver Neal once said,

“We are actually fourth dimensional beings in a third dimensional body
inhabiting a second dimensional world!”

If you cannot understand what Mr. Nota is posting, just take a moment to figure
it out. It will be worth your while.

Respectfully

Paul R. Ward

― Neal Cassady

“My prose has no individual style as such, but is rather an unspoken and
still unexpressed groping toward the personal. There is something there that
wants to come out; something of my own that must be said. Yet, perhaps, words
are not the way for me.”

With all due respect Paul, what do you think about the idea of the Japanese fleet of 1940 sailing to Britain along the Soviet coast?

We had a rather interesting conversation going on for 147 comments until nota proposed his idea and ever since he has been refusing to address the most basic problems with it. We're 63 comments away from that point and the idea still doesn't make sense, the relevant content disappeared, so how do you exactly propose to make it worth our while?

[Terry Duncan]

Hello All :

Recently, Mr. Nota has come under criticism by some for the format, syntax,
and punctuation of his postings. Mr. Nota is NOT a newcomer to this forum, in
fact, he has been a contributor since 2006, more than sixteen years.

Yes, and he has also posted with punctuation and capital letters at times. English is not the first language of everyone here, so it is essential that ideas are expressed clearly.

While
at times his postings may seem somewhat opaque, I have been able to work
them out with little or no trouble, and they present some interesting ideas.

In which case expressing his views clearly would benefit everyone. We could decide to converse using binary code, but the site rules require people to use English, which includes punctuation.

I am even happy to meet Nota halfway, but I am not willing to simply be ignored after a perfectly polite request. The site has rules, people need to at least make an effort to follow them, if they are not willing to do so then maybe this is the wrong site for them.

[Urmel]

This is of course related to the ground operations in the Levant. We'll never know what would have happened if there was no Barbarossa in 1941. 1941 April-August was strange indeed. French fueled German aircraft, Germans provided the French with food, and the French were fighting against the British. A low level German-French cooperation was by far the most threatening thing to Britain and Churchill knew this.

This actually continued to the end of the year, with Tunisian autorities selling weapons, fuel, and trucks to the Axis forces in Libya.

[Peter89]

This is of course related to the ground operations in the Levant. We'll never know what would have happened if there was no Barbarossa in 1941. 1941 April-August was strange indeed. French fueled German aircraft, Germans provided the French with food, and the French were fighting against the British. A low level German-French cooperation was by far the most threatening thing to Britain and Churchill knew this.

This actually continued to the end of the year, with Tunisian autorities selling weapons, fuel, and trucks to the Axis forces in Libya.

Really? Never heard of this one! The French delivered supplies to the Axis forces in Africa? Were these supplies more like stockpiles or new deliveries?

[glenn239]

Really? Never heard of this one! The French delivered supplies to the Axis forces in Africa? Were these supplies more like stockpiles or new deliveries?

I think The War Against Rommel's Supply LInes covers this. When Rommel took over DAK, I recall that one of his original recommendations was the occupation of Tunisia in order to take advantage of the excellent deep water ports there. This was obviously rejected, but the idea of contracting supply via Vichy Tunisia was pursued. I don't think it had amounted to much actual material delivered to Tripoli by the time of Torch though.

[glenn239]

With all due respect Paul, what do you think about the idea of the Japanese fleet of 1940 sailing to Britain along the Soviet coast?

Not sure what Paul's opinion is, but mine is that the operational proposal was infeasible for various reasons including the unwillingness to dispatch such important ships to a distant theatre while matters in Japanese home waters were far from settled in a manner favorable to Japan, as well as the operational risk of placing Japanese capital ships in the hands of the Soviets, to say nothing of the fact that the Royal Navy might sink them.

We had a rather interesting conversation going on for 147 comments until nota proposed his idea and ever since he has been refusing to address the most basic problems with it. We're 63 comments away from that point and the idea still doesn't make sense, the relevant content disappeared, so how do you exactly propose to make it worth our while?

So why keep discussing it? State your opinion and then move on.

[Urmel]

This is of course related to the ground operations in the Levant. We'll never know what would have happened if there was no Barbarossa in 1941. 1941 April-August was strange indeed. French fueled German aircraft, Germans provided the French with food, and the French were fighting against the British. A low level German-French cooperation was by far the most threatening thing to Britain and Churchill knew this.

This actually continued to the end of the year, with Tunisian autorities selling weapons, fuel, and trucks to the Axis forces in Libya.

Really? Never heard of this one! The French delivered supplies to the Axis forces in Africa? Were these supplies more like stockpiles or new deliveries?

Several thousand trucks of varying quality, at least 20x155mm Howitzers and ammunition, meaningful amounts of fuel. I also think food was involved.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2009/07/22/c ... used-them/

https://rommelsriposte.com/2011/02/23/f ... revisited/

[paulrward]

Hello All ;

Since I have been asked questions, I will endeavor to answer.

First, Mr. Nota's premise, as I understand it, is that, throughout WW2, the Coordination between
the Axis Powers was essentially non existant. Germany signed a Treaty with Russia without
notifying Japan in advance, Italy attacked Yugoslavia and Greece, and NorthAfrica, without
warning Germany, Japan attacked the U.S without warning Germany. The list goes on.

What Mr. Nota was postulating is,

WHAT IF there was better coordination between the Axis Powers ?


His Posting was ( and I have adjusted the Punctuation and Spelling slightly )

IF YOU WANT peripheral theaters WHY GO TO Kiel? Just sail where ever.
From Japan would be a better use of them.
....and they sail with no teleport or miracles allowed ...
I want a concentrated attack to invade and end ! A quick war, not prolonging
the war all over.
Just a knock out blow, total effort, all in !

From this, I get the idea that, it might have been a better plan for Germany, if they
wanted to have a Surface Raider Commerce War, to make arrangements with Japan
ahead of time, and use Japanese Merchant Vessels and Tankers to refuel and resupply
German Surface Raiders, while at the same time, using Japanese ports to serve as
the destination for captured Allied Merchant ships that the Germans felt were too
valuble to sink - such as tankers and cargo ships with high value cargoes ( such as
raw materials that could be usefull to the Japanese Industry. ) The captured ships
would be sent to IJN naval bases, far from prying foreign eyes, and after a quick
coat of paint and some phony papers, would serve as even more auxiliaries for
the German Pacific Surface Raeder Fleet.

In addition, it would be helpful, while the initial confusion about German Surface Raiders
is at it's height, to add a few Japanese Surface Raiders, disguised as German Warships,
flying German Flags, and taking out even more British and French Shipping ! All that while,
the Japanese are expressing to the British what a tragic and sad thing it is that so many
British ships are being captured and sunk by German Raiders......

Now, sending the IJN across the Arctic Ocean is a good recipe for another Franklin Expedition
Disaster, writ massively larger ! But, what if, in Autumn of 1940, the IJN did an All Out against
Malaya, neutralized Singapore ( The Gibralter of the Pacific ! ) and Hong Kong, and sent the
IJN into the Indian Ocean. A quick sideswiping attack on Ceylon, and a hard drive up to the
Red Sea, where they attack any ships in the Suez Canal, sinking them and blocking the Canal !

If the Japanese really wanted to get creative, they could charter a couple of Merchant Vessels,
load them up with sacks of dried SackCrete, and send them into the Suez Canal ahead of their
attack on Singapore. Then, while in the Canal, the ships move into position, drive their bows
into one bank, their sterns into the other, open their seacocks, and let the water flood in and
turn the SackCrete into solid rock. How long would it take to get the Suez Canal open again
under such circumstances ?

Suddenly, Alexandria, and all of British Egypt, is cut off except through the Med. And that
can be a dangerous place for Allied Merchant Shipping....


I hope my punctuation is up to snuff - I have noticed that in the recent past, a few persons
on this forum have taken issue to the way I format the text of my postings.

Respectfully


Paul R. Ward

[Peter89]

This is of course related to the ground operations in the Levant. We'll never know what would have happened if there was no Barbarossa in 1941. 1941 April-August was strange indeed. French fueled German aircraft, Germans provided the French with food, and the French were fighting against the British. A low level German-French cooperation was by far the most threatening thing to Britain and Churchill knew this.

This actually continued to the end of the year, with Tunisian autorities selling weapons, fuel, and trucks to the Axis forces in Libya.

Really? Never heard of this one! The French delivered supplies to the Axis forces in Africa? Were these supplies more like stockpiles or new deliveries?

Several thousand trucks of varying quality, at least 20x155mm Howitzers and ammunition, meaningful amounts of fuel. I also think food was involved.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2009/07/22/c ... used-them/

https://rommelsriposte.com/2011/02/23/f ... revisited/

Great content, thank you.

I really miss the knowledge of French language and the relative lack of English and German sources on the subject of Vichy-German cooperation. For example, in the Iraq-Levant campaign sequence the French weaponry and supplies were quite serious, and Darlan wanted to move more troops, aircrafts and supplies into the Levant, but the Germans only allowed a small portion through.

I also do not know how did metropolitan France interact with Northwest Africa and Martinique, what kind of troops, weapons and supplies were in the former, and was there a real chance to bring back the gold from the latter. Also I have little idea what happened with the French merchant fleet before November 1942.

[Peter89]

Really? Never heard of this one! The French delivered supplies to the Axis forces in Africa? Were these supplies more like stockpiles or new deliveries?

I think The War Against Rommel's Supply LInes covers this. When Rommel took over DAK, I recall that one of his original recommendations was the occupation of Tunisia in order to take advantage of the excellent deep water ports there. This was obviously rejected, but the idea of contracting supply via Vichy Tunisia was pursued. I don't think it had amounted to much actual material delivered to Tripoli by the time of Torch though.

In theory the Germans were free to use French ports from May 1941 onwards. However, cargo arriving to Tunisia is half a continent away from Egypt, so I'm not sure how big of a help it would be.

[Urmel]

Really? Never heard of this one! The French delivered supplies to the Axis forces in Africa? Were these supplies more like stockpiles or new deliveries?

I think The War Against Rommel's Supply LInes covers this. When Rommel took over DAK, I recall that one of his original recommendations was the occupation of Tunisia in order to take advantage of the excellent deep water ports there. This was obviously rejected, but the idea of contracting supply via Vichy Tunisia was pursued. I don't think it had amounted to much actual material delivered to Tripoli by the time of Torch though.

In theory the Germans were free to use French ports from May 1941 onwards. However, cargo arriving to Tunisia is half a continent away from Egypt, so I'm not sure how big of a help it would be.

I think the bigger benefit would have been the use of the railways in Tunisia, even though that ended at Gabes.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ma ... ruary-1943

[thaddeus_c]

I really miss the knowledge of French language and the relative lack of English and German sources on the subject of Vichy-German cooperation. For example, in the Iraq-Levant campaign sequence the French weaponry and supplies were quite serious, and Darlan wanted to move more troops, aircrafts and supplies into the Levant, but the Germans only allowed a small portion through.

I have two books England's Last War Against France by Smith and Traditional Enemies by Grainger, reinforcements were sent via ship, but due to RN strength in the area they were stalled in Greece, and were not provided German air transport.

my understanding they were not actively denied German support but fell victim to the preoccupation with invading the USSR.

a larger view might be that Germany should never have become involved in the Iraqi coup which directly led to the British invasion of Syria-Lebanon?

[Peter89]

I really miss the knowledge of French language and the relative lack of English and German sources on the subject of Vichy-German cooperation. For example, in the Iraq-Levant campaign sequence the French weaponry and supplies were quite serious, and Darlan wanted to move more troops, aircrafts and supplies into the Levant, but the Germans only allowed a small portion through.

I have two books England's Last War Against France by Smith and Traditional Enemies by Grainger, reinforcements were sent via ship, but due to RN strength in the area they were stalled in Greece, and were not provided German air transport.

my understanding they were not actively denied German support but fell victim to the preoccupation with invading the USSR.

a larger view might be that Germany should never have become involved in the Iraqi coup which directly led to the British invasion of Syria-Lebanon?

Yes, the French contingent travelled to Thessaloniki by train, and used both merchant ships and larger, fast destroyers to reinforce the Armée du Levant. Germans denied air cover and the authorization of a larger naval contingent. The French orders were to turn back whenever they encounter British aircrafts, which they did, it was eg. the fate of Le Chevalier Paul, sunk by a torpedo of a RAF aircraft. The Germans also denied the reinforcement of the Vichy air force, fearing that the Vichy will change sides. In other words, they did not let the Vichy beat the British, although they rather easily could. Of course, the primary reason for this was the war in the USSR.

The German involvement in the Iraqi coup (or war of independence) is an interesting strategic question. The German literature on the subject is really good and large. I'd recommend the topic's best author, Bernd Philipp Schröder's Deutschland und der Mittlere Osten im Zweiten Weltkrieg and Irak 1941 if you read German. The fundamental issue was the lack of a consistent and unified German strategy regarding this region. There were two lines in German foreign policy towards the Mediterraneum: the "Ribbentrop-Linie" had Fritz Grobba, Hans-Ulrich Granow, Rudolf Rahn, Hellmuth Felmy, Franz von Papen, Theodor Habicht, Ernst Wilhelm Bohle, Wilhelm Keppler, Hans-Joachim von Ribbentrop and Hermann Göring in its ranks, although with varying commitment and influence. The "Weizsäcker-Linie" had Werner Otto von Hentig, Curt Prüfer, Erwin Ettel, Wilhelm Melchers, Wilhelm Kohlhaas, Ernst Woermann, Günther Pawelke, Werner Junck, Wilhelm Canaris, Hans Speidel, Albert Kesselring and Ernst von Weizsäcker.

The "Ribbentrop-Linie" saw the way to victory over Britain via the demolishion of their colonial empire; inciting rebellions on its colonies and direct attacks on Britain's strongpoints.

The "Weizsäcker-Linie" saw it as a terrible distraction and emphasized Germany's ability to make war either on the mainland or to go against Britain vis-á-vis.

Interestingly, this rift ran through the German military and state decades before and after WW2. It had little to do with the exact people or the exact comments in 1940/1941; Hitler was unable and uncapable to decide in this matter; thus, he hesitated. Having hesitated, he lost the opportunity.

Also please note that the British sent troops to Iraq before Rashid Ali pleaded Axis support, or the first German arrived to Iraq. The British goal was to deny the Iraquis to become an independent nation and retain control over the important Iraqi infrastructure and resources. I doubt that German involvement did much in this regard, the British saw the Iraqi independence as a rebellion, and the disposal of their colonial vassal king as a coup. This is of course no excuse for Rashid Ali, who was probably the worst general in World War II.

And one last remark: without German involvement in Iraq, the Levant would face a serious famine. By May 1941, the French food stocks were enough for two weeks, the civilians started to hide food and black market of the foodstuffs flourished. I always found it strange that the Vichy trains loaded with war supplies to Iraq steamed back empty. They were not empty, however, they were full; full of food, which Iraq produced in surplus back in 1940. Without these deliveries, the Levant forces might never be able to fight at all.

[Peter89]

Really? Never heard of this one! The French delivered supplies to the Axis forces in Africa? Were these supplies more like stockpiles or new deliveries?

I think The War Against Rommel's Supply LInes covers this. When Rommel took over DAK, I recall that one of his original recommendations was the occupation of Tunisia in order to take advantage of the excellent deep water ports there. This was obviously rejected, but the idea of contracting supply via Vichy Tunisia was pursued. I don't think it had amounted to much actual material delivered to Tripoli by the time of Torch though.

In theory the Germans were free to use French ports from May 1941 onwards. However, cargo arriving to Tunisia is half a continent away from Egypt, so I'm not sure how big of a help it would be.

I think the bigger benefit would have been the use of the railways in Tunisia, even though that ended at Gabes.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ma ... ruary-1943

Weren't they allowed to use that railway, or any railway for that matter?

[Peter89]

Hello All ;

Since I have been asked questions, I will endeavor to answer.

First, Mr. Nota's premise, as I understand it, is that, throughout WW2, the Coordination between
the Axis Powers was essentially non existant. Germany signed a Treaty with Russia without
notifying Japan in advance, Italy attacked Yugoslavia and Greece, and NorthAfrica, without
warning Germany, Japan attacked the U.S without warning Germany. The list goes on.

What Mr. Nota was postulating is,

WHAT IF there was better coordination between the Axis Powers ?


His Posting was ( and I have adjusted the Punctuation and Spelling slightly )

IF YOU WANT peripheral theaters WHY GO TO Kiel? Just sail where ever.
From Japan would be a better use of them.
....and they sail with no teleport or miracles allowed ...
I want a concentrated attack to invade and end ! A quick war, not prolonging
the war all over.
Just a knock out blow, total effort, all in !

From this, I get the idea that, it might have been a better plan for Germany, if they
wanted to have a Surface Raider Commerce War, to make arrangements with Japan
ahead of time, and use Japanese Merchant Vessels and Tankers to refuel and resupply
German Surface Raiders, while at the same time, using Japanese ports to serve as
the destination for captured Allied Merchant ships that the Germans felt were too
valuble to sink - such as tankers and cargo ships with high value cargoes ( such as
raw materials that could be usefull to the Japanese Industry. ) The captured ships
would be sent to IJN naval bases, far from prying foreign eyes, and after a quick
coat of paint and some phony papers, would serve as even more auxiliaries for
the German Pacific Surface Raeder Fleet.

Hello Paul, I do not see how extensive refuelling and cooperation would work without interpreters, joint exercises and the such. I doubt that the IJN would send its limited number of fleet oilers into the Indian Ocean to support German operations there. It was also quite rare to use prize crews and send the ship to a foreign port; not to mention that Japan had conquered a proper resource base by 1942.

We have some evidence how German-Japanese naval cooperation was working in WW2. See Monsun Gruppe. Also Hilfskreuzers could not be run by skeleton crews; not to mention they required torpedoes, guns, provisions and the such, things that the Japanese badly needed themselves.

In addition, it would be helpful, while the initial confusion about German Surface Raiders
is at it's height,

Which is not the time when Japan entered into the war and took the Greater Sunda Islands,

to add a few Japanese Surface Raiders, disguised as German Warships,
flying German Flags, and taking out even more British and French Shipping !

but more like after France was defeated. So optimally they shouldn't sink French vessels at all.

All that while,
the Japanese are expressing to the British what a tragic and sad thing it is that so many
British ships are being captured and sunk by German Raiders......

So Japan, already bogged down in China, would risk a war with a major naval power to help a few German commerce raiders?

Now, sending the IJN across the Arctic Ocean is a good recipe for another Franklin Expedition
Disaster, writ massively larger !

We agree on this one.

But, what if, in Autumn of 1940, the IJN did an All Out against
Malaya, neutralized Singapore ( The Gibralter of the Pacific ! ) and Hong Kong, and sent the
IJN into the Indian Ocean. A quick sideswiping attack on Ceylon, and a hard drive up to the
Red Sea, where they attack any ships in the Suez Canal, sinking them and blocking the Canal !

For starters, I have no idea whether the Japanese were able or willing to do that, or were they hoping that the DEI would fall into their hands like French Indochina did. They could also play for time, because if Britain gets defeated, they don't have to fight against the British at all; they could simply get at the negotiation table whatever they wanted, as Germany was not really interested in Pacific colonies. Germany also supported and depended on China, so it is unlikely that the Japanese would jump into the war for German interests.

Also the Japanese would never send a sizeable portion of their fleet into the Red Sea. It would be a recipe for disaster. The fleet contingent would be totally exposed to aerial attacks, mines and land-based batteries. Also the Suez Canal could not be approached without encountering an armed patrol. And this is not a "what if", but a certainity.

If the Japanese really wanted to get creative, they could charter a couple of Merchant Vessels,
load them up with sacks of dried SackCrete, and send them into the Suez Canal ahead of their
attack on Singapore. Then, while in the Canal, the ships move into position, drive their bows
into one bank, their sterns into the other, open their seacocks, and let the water flood in and
turn the SackCrete into solid rock. How long would it take to get the Suez Canal open again
under such circumstances ?

I loved this one, not gonna lie
Although it is more like fantasy than reality.

In reality, German mining efforts and the such closed the Canal for extended periods of time. That did not prevent the delivery of supplies to the Suez base though.

Suddenly, Alexandria, and all of British Egypt, is cut off except through the Med. And that
can be a dangerous place for Allied Merchant Shipping....

Again, it wouldn't be cut.
But if given a strong enough escort, a Gibraltar-Alexandria convoy could sail from one end of the Mediterranean Sea to the other with little trouble, because the Italian naval doctrine prohibited a naval clash unless there was Italian superiority and the Luftwaffe was tied down in other theatres of war.