Richard Anderson wrote: ↑
17 Dec 2022 03:52
Stoat Coat wrote: ↑
15 Dec 2022 21:57
Peter89 wrote: ↑
15 Dec 2022 19:12
Stoat Coat wrote: ↑
15 Dec 2022 18:41
Peter89 wrote: ↑
13 Dec 2022 19:09
Just a few quick questions. Are you familiar with the logistical needs of a Gebirgsdivision?
They had one of the leanest logistics tails of any German division, that’s for sure, except maybe compared to static divisions.
Just give us a number please. You seem to be familiar with it.
Number of what? How about this:
A Gebirgsjager Division was basically a better trained Infanterie Division trained and specialized in mountain warfare; two of its artillery battalions were light artillery, and it had less gas chugging heavy-weight trucks, which is necessary when the entire point is to be able to chug artillery up sheer slopes and poor roads on a mountain side. You don’t need constant fuel supplies when you don’t have that much in the way of fuel needs, and call it intuition but I’d imagine 75mm ammunition for the 7.5 cm Gebirgsgeschütz 36 is a lot lighter than for the 105mm plus guns of stands Infanterie support. Everything about these divisions is meant to be nimble. But sure, I guess you don’t have to use a full division, you could use fortress infantry battalions (they landed at least one on Svalbard historically) and a single Gebirgsjager regiment.
You are spinning assumptions into what you think are facts. How about instead of speculation and your imagination you deal with some facts?
Erste-Muni-Ausstattung for an Infanterie-Division Typ 1944 was 710.72 metric tons. For a Gebirgsjäger-Division of the same year it was...wait for it, 700.32 metric tons. You're talking a "savings" of 10.4 tons.
Rations, one of the other big weight items, is dependent on the number of men and animals in the unit that need fed. In 1941, the 1. Gebirgsjäger-Division authorized strength was 24,956 men and 7,405 animals. The 1. Welle Infanterie-Divisionen authorized strength was 17,734 men and 4,842 animals.
Vehicles? In 1939, the 1. Gebirgsjäger-Division authorized vehicles strength was 1,903 vehicles - 394 PKW, 793 LKW, and 736 motorcycles. The 1. Welle Infanterie-Divisionen authorized vehicle strength was 1,539 - 394 PKW, 615 LKW, 527 motorcycles, and 3 AFV.
Your first two sentences are a little unnecessary in the snark factor for my taste, but fine. I don’t want to gripe with you too much because I know you’re a nice guy who’s shared a lot of useful stuff with me, but I went back and checked the sources I have available.
Your numbers definitely seem high, Ian Baxter in his book on the Gebirgsjager, put the typical authorized strength for a Gebirgsjager Division during the invasion of Poland at 14,000 men, 1,500 horses, 4,300 pack animals, and 550 “mountain horses” (5,350 animals total), and 1,600 vehicles “which included many motorcycles and cross country cars and 600 horse drawn vehicles”. Horse drawn “vehicles” obviously don’t use gas, and it’s well known that deliberately lighter weight trucks were issued to the Gebirgs formations, although I’ll admit that it’s an assumption on my part that they burned less gas.
That being said, you make an awfully big assumption yourself by thinking that the Gebirgsjager Divisions used in Scandinavia historically, and theoretically in this scenario, are like the case samples you mention.
FYI as Nigel Askey mentioned in his Op. Barbarossa organization book the 2nd and 3rd Gebirgsjager Divisions historically fielded in the Arctic/Northern regions (notably during Silverfox) AKA the ones that were actually being used in highly Mountainous and Arctic environment's, exclusively possessed two battalions of light artillery and medium artillery (75mm, and some 105s) and no heavy artillery at all to operate properly. The others used like reinforced Infantry divisions on the eastern front had two extra artillery battalions, including at least two batteries of motorized heavy artillery. Except 1st Gebirgsjager Division which had three batteries of motorized heavy arty, and was the only division whose regiments had the Grebirgs heavy gun infantry platoons (two 15cm Howitzers each), so you seem to have selected an outlier to make your case look better than it is. Not a huge difference but notable, especially for prime mover requirements. I’ll note that photographic evidence of the famous detachment from 1st Gebirgs used to occupy mount Elberus (including a photo I posted earlier) shows only the use of the 7.5cm mountain gun precisely because of the problems of heavy and medium arty in the mountains.
Peter89 brought up the logistics concerns to begin with, he seemed to think it was ridiculous for the Gebirgsjager to play a role, even though they were used in just about every major Arctic operation for the Germans conducted historically which is why I thought they might be used, as they were from Narvik onwards. And what German divisions exactly did have a “leaner logistics” tail than even a standard Mountain division other than static divisions, let alone the ones as organized for Arctic operations, and would have be used in a theoretical holding action on mountainous archipelago like Svalbard?