Waffen-SS

[Westphalia1812]

I didn't realise that both of these divisions had such severe casualties in June. Do you have their casualties for July?

[lartiste]

Im not sure if you are joking or serious with that comment.

I was just asking if anyone could think of a reason why The Russians were so brutal with the SS.

Because they were and still are barbarians? Proof? Just google the phrase "Russian soldiers castrating a Ukrainian prisoner".

[Christoph Awender]

Hello, Please leave current "Poilitics" out of the discussuon.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Cult Icon,

You say "the Germans "got their money's worth out of 12.SS".

Did they?

It took nearly 18 months from allocating its number to get its specially selected manpower into action. It was expended in less than two months and was never the same again. It was full of young men with junior leadership potential who might have been better employed earlier in junior leadership roles with numerous other formations. Albert Speer regarded its expenditure of specially selected youth in Normandy as a waste of prime, next generation, manpower, much like the kindermord of students in 1914.

It could reasonably be argued that the 12th Waffen-SS Division was conceptually mistaken and that better value for money could have been extracted by targetted use of its selected manpower in junior leadership roles elsewhere.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Aida1]

Hi Cult Icon,

You say "the Germans "got their money's worth out of 12.SS".

Did they?

It took nearly 18 months from allocating its number to get its specially selected manpower into action. It was expended in less than two months and was never the same again. It was full of young men with junior leadership potential who might have been better employed earlier in junior leadership roles with numerous other formations. Albert Speer regarded its expenditure of specially selected youth in Normandy as a waste of prime, next generation, manpower, much like the kindermord of students in 1914.

It could reasonably be argued that the 12th Waffen-SS Division was conceptually mistaken and that better value for money could have been extracted by targetted use of its selected manpower in junior leadership roles elsewhere.

Cheers,

Sid.

The setting up of the division did not take 16 months. Hitler ordered the setting up of the division in june 1943 and it first recruits arrived in July 1943(Kriegsgeschichte der 12.SS Panzer division., H Meyer pp13-17). On June 1 1944 was fully capable for all offensive missions( H Meyer p 26).
The Hitlerjugend division performed well in Normandy well and was as burned out as all other divisions.
Obviously it was generally better to use manpower to keep up to strength existing divisions. Something that was valid for the whole German army. Even the Waffen ss itself was convinced of that. But that does not mean that the setting up of this specific division was conceptually wrong. There was certainly a need for more pz div with the prospect of the allied invasion. And not setting it up would not have made any difference.

[Aida1]

The Normandy literature has basically made the 12.SS Pz Division the "star" German formation of the British-Canadian sector. However it could be that of overemphasis with 2.Pz and 21.Pz less focused on. IMHO a lot is still missing.

The Germans got their money's worth out of the 12.SS but the unlucky 9.Pz and 116.Pz- on paper formidable units- got sent into the collapsing situation and were roughly handled as allied spearheads savaged their rear. Much of the Windhund's PzR 156 was captured without the opportunity to get combat value out of them.

IMHO the Allied strategy- and the terrible German one- was very effective in making the PZ units in Normandy a lot less effective than they could have been. If they pulled back from Caen as Rundstedt wanted the Germans would have gotten their money's worth like they would normally had in an extended front.

116 pz was hardly formidable as it was far from ready in the beginning of June 1944. It still lacked a lot of vehicles(Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen Heinz Gunther Guderian pp15-16). It was expected to be fully ready by June 20 1944.
Two things should not be confused. On the one hand there is the issue that mobile divisions should be in reserve to counterattack and infantry divisions should hold the front. There was a lack of infantry divisions to be able to do that.
The other issue was that because of the effect of allied naval firepower retreats were proposed to get out of range of that firepower.

[Aida1]

Hi Georg_S,

The Allies had no justifiable respect for the Waffen-SS. Their reputation was largely based on wartime PR by Goebbels, self-serving post-war memoirs by Waffen-SS veterans and a gullible and money-orientated largely English-language publishing industry that accepted their estimates of themselves at face value.

The Allies did have respect for German armoured formations, all of which were Army when Germany was winning the war and most of which were still Army when it was losing it.



Cheers,

Sid.

Your anti Waffen ss divisions bias is shining through again with that prose. . I suspect you did not read many Waffen ss divisional histories.
Why bother about some divisions having an ss sign behind its number. If they are good, they are good and the original Waffen ss div were certainly very good. The army always wanted them around.

[Christoph Awender]

Hello,
I recommend read and participate in this thread when it comes to this basic discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=190068

/Christoph

[Westphalia1812]

Hi Georg_S,

The Allies had no justifiable respect for the Waffen-SS. Their reputation was largely based on wartime PR by Goebbels, self-serving post-war memoirs by Waffen-SS veterans and a gullible and money-orientated largely English-language publishing industry that accepted their estimates of themselves at face value.

The Allies did have respect for German armoured formations, all of which were Army when Germany was winning the war and most of which were still Army when it was losing it.



Cheers,

Sid.

The army always wanted them around.

What do you mean by 'The army'? The OKH? The Corps? Divisions? The rank and file? Could you be more specific and give sources?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Aida1,

Did I say the setting up of the division took 16 months?

No, so I don't have to defend that.

What I actually wrote was, "It took nearly 18 months from allocating its number to get its specially selected manpower into action."

Had the Allies not landed in Normandy, it might have taken even longer to get into action!

You say, "And not setting it up would not have made any difference." So why bother?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Aida1,

You ask, "Why bother about some divisions having an ss sign behind its number." Exactly my point. The SS offered little or no value-added to the Wehrmacht, so what was the point of the Waffen-SS?

You say, "If they are good, they are good and the original Waffen ss div were certainly very good". Indeed, they often were, but why? I would suggest that it was because they were motorised from the start, latterly armoured and received a disproportional share of volunteers, unlike the largely foot-bound, horse-drawn, conscript army divisions. It had little or nothing to do with their "Waffen-SS-edness".

You say, "The army always wanted them around." Nope. the Army opposed their very existence. However, once political decisions had created them, the German Army had no alternative but to make best possible use of them. The average landser didn't much care whether it was a W-SS panzer division or an Army panzer division came to his aid, just so long as someone did.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Harro]

Exactly my point. The SS offered little or no value-added to the Wehrmacht, so what was the point of the Waffen-SS?

Thats quite literally "Why the Waffen-SS?"

Hello,
I recommend read and participate in this thread when it comes to this basic discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=190068

/Christoph

[Westphalia1812]

Exactly my point. The SS offered little or no value-added to the Wehrmacht, so what was the point of the Waffen-SS?

Thats quite literally "Why the Waffen-SS?"

Hello,
I recommend read and participate in this thread when it comes to this basic discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=190068

/Christoph

Well, Sid is not gonna develop new arguments any time soon...

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Westphalia,

Sid doesn't need to develop new arguments as long as the old arguments are still serviceable. They are.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Harro,

Yes, that is quite literally, "Why the Waffen-SS?".

If the same mistaken propositions keep rearing their heads elsewhere, they need to be challenged elsewhere.

Cheers,

Sid.