Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

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wm
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 10 May 2022 20:11

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
10 May 2022 15:06
Indeed, if i read Ciano, or Maiski i see only negative comments about Beck : cold, arrogant, hostile to democracies, somehow stupid etc.
Looks like everyone blames him.

Ivan Maisky didn't write anything about Beck in his diary (except mentioning his name.)
The Mussolini successor and war criminal Galeazzo Ciano wrote this about Beck:
I welcomed Beck at the station. The Chief has a strong dislike for him, without knowing him, with that odd capacity that men have for hating or loving someone without ever having seen them. I must admit that this time as well his instinct is correct: at first sight Beck is not a congenial person and he creates a chilly atmosphere around him.
...
But I don't want to judge him before having listened to him and gotten to know him better.
The few words that he did say up to now did not seem to me to be very pro-German.
CIANO DIARIES 1939-1943

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 10 May 2022 20:21

wm wrote:
10 May 2022 20:11
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
10 May 2022 15:06
Indeed, if i read Ciano, or Maiski i see only negative comments about Beck : cold, arrogant, hostile to democracies, somehow stupid etc.
Looks like everyone blames him.

Ivan Maisky didn't write anything about Beck in his diary (except mentioning his name.)
The Mussolini successor and war criminal Galeazzo Ciano wrote this about Beck:
I welcomed Beck at the station. The Chief has a strong dislike for him, without knowing him, with that odd capacity that men have for hating or loving someone without ever having seen them. I must admit that this time as well his instinct is correct: at first sight Beck is not a congenial person and he creates a chilly atmosphere around him.
...
But I don't want to judge him before having listened to him and gotten to know him better.
The few words that he did say up to now did not seem to me to be very pro-German.
CIANO DIARIES 1939-1943
As you know, Ciano was not "very pro-german".

You wont find a good word about Beck in Ciano diary.

ps : Galeazzo Ciano was not a war criminal. And he was not the successor of Mussolini. Mussolini dismissed him in february 1943. Ciano voted for the fall of Mussolini the 25 july of 1944. And Ciano was trialed and executed by the Republic of Salo directed by Mussolini in january 1944.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 10 May 2022 20:26

It's absurd to cite what Noël thought what Gafencu though about Beck.
This is what Grigore Gafencu wrote about Beck in his "Last Days of Europe."
In reality, the perfect balance which Beck desired to maintain did incline toward the west — which fact the Minister did not deny.
Not that his patriotism was tainted by any love for Germany, as has wrongly been suggested.
A faithful disciple of Marshal Pilsudski, the founder of this policy of equilibrium, Colonel Beck denied that he had ever admitted
that any foreign influence could alter his national sentiment, which was as ardent, as proud, and as uncompromising as that of any of his compatriots.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 10 May 2022 20:31

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
10 May 2022 20:21
ps : Galeazzo Ciano was not a war criminal.
Ciano was responsible for planning and executing the war of aggression against Albania, and for the war of aggression against Greece.
The same crimes Ribbentrop was hanged by the neck until he was dead at Nuremberg.

Ciano was the successor of his father-in-law till he betrayed him.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 10 May 2022 20:53

wm wrote:
10 May 2022 20:26
It's absurd to cite what Noël thought what Gafencu though about Beck.
This is what Grigore Gafencu wrote about Beck in his "Last Days of Europe."
In reality, the perfect balance which Beck desired to maintain did incline toward the west — which fact the Minister did not deny.
Not that his patriotism was tainted by any love for Germany, as has wrongly been suggested.
A faithful disciple of Marshal Pilsudski, the founder of this policy of equilibrium, Colonel Beck denied that he had ever admitted
that any foreign influence could alter his national sentiment, which was as ardent, as proud, and as uncompromising as that of any of his compatriots.
Not "in love", but still inclined to nazi Germany.
That's the point of view of Gafencu.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by gebhk » 10 May 2022 20:56

I would suggest the foreign ministers of a Fascist dictatorship and a Communist tatalitarian state resdponsible for the murers of millions of its citizens were not in a position to lecture anyone on democracy.
I challenge you to find someone praising Beck.
That's easy - Marshal Pilsudski. And let's face it, that was the only opinion that really mattered. Noels' - not so much :D I find it fascinating how your entire case seems to be based on one author's unverifiable gossip - even when every single piece of his text that we could verify was found to be entirely wrong.

Hi WM
Thnaks, well done: that is exactly the thing I was talking about - the second temporary station, built in 1933. I was wrong in one respect - the previous photo you showed was taken near completion rather than at the beginning. Also the text I read was clearly wrong also in one aspect, the roof is not flat.
Last edited by gebhk on 10 May 2022 21:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 10 May 2022 20:58

wm wrote:
10 May 2022 20:31
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
10 May 2022 20:21
ps : Galeazzo Ciano was not a war criminal.
Ciano was responsible for planning and executing the war of aggression against Albania, and for the war of aggression against Greece.
The same crimes Ribbentrop was hanged by the neck until he was dead at Nuremberg.

Ciano was the successor of his father-in-law till he betrayed him.
Mussolini has no successor. He was killed with no successor in 1945. He disavowed Ciano in february 43. Ciano is dead in january 44, he was not trialed, not convicted for what you say.
Ribbentrop was judged and hanged.
I do not judge. You do. And i dont think we need this here.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by gebhk » 10 May 2022 21:03

i dont think we need this here
Couldn't agree more. With regard to Beck and everyone else.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by henryk » 10 May 2022 21:17

gebhk wrote:
09 May 2022 23:19
Hi Henryk
The Stacja Muzeum is located at the former Warsaw Główna PKP railway terminus
The whole thing is totally confusing. However, best as I can make out, Stacja Muzeum (a museum and not a railway station, of course) is, according to their website, on the site of the post-war Dworzec Glowny Osobowy (Main Passenger Station). This was opened in 1945 using the facilities of the pre-war freight terminal at Towarowa street - principally because it was one of the few rail facilities which, unlike most, had survived the war relatively undamaged. This however is not the station in question.

The pre-war Dworzec Glowny which was partially opened in 1938, lay alongside the Aleje Jerozolimskie between Marszalkowska and Emilii Plater. The platforms were below ground level, with the three halls located above them. The station was never finished. It suffered a catastrophic fire in June '39, bomb damage in September of the same year and was blown up by the Germans in 1944. After the war the site was levelled in 1947 and then concreted over and paved/lawned in 1952 as part of the Palace of Culture project (it was this project that caused the moving of the main station down the road to the present position of Warszawa Centralna). Using the underground platforms of the old station, the building of a new station - Warszawa Srodmiescie - was commenced in 1955 and opened in 1963 (not to be confused with the Warszawa Srodmiescie WKD on the other side of the Central Station - the terminus of the WKD line (Warszawska Kolej Dojazdowa - Warsaw Access Railway: a suburban commuter line which was built and functioned before and during WW2 as the EKD line). Confused? You will be!
Thank you for the information. Attached is 1936 map of the Dw Gł area.
The 1931 wig and German 1944 (based on data IV 42 and X 43) show the same.
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by henryk » 10 May 2022 21:19


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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 10 May 2022 21:32

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
10 May 2022 20:58
Mussolini has no successor. He was killed with no successor in 1945.
Who else in Italy.png
John Gunther, Who Else in Italy?
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 10 May 2022 21:54

gebhk wrote:
10 May 2022 20:56
I would suggest the foreign ministers of a Fascist dictatorship and a Communist tatalitarian state resdponsible for the murers of millions of its citizens were not in a position to lecture anyone on democracy.
Ciano, Maiski, Gafencu but also Eden, Noël etc.
I challenge you to find someone praising Beck.
That's easy - Marshal Pilsudski.
Ok quote him.
Beck spoke several languages. He was a devoted pilsudskist, very obedient. I think that's the qualities that made Pilsudki name Beck.

Beck trusted Hitler. He did not think Hitler would attack him. He was sympathetic to nazi régime. He thought Danzig's question would be settled peacefully and that Hitler would expand in the baltic states. He thought he could take benefit from Hitler's policy. Indeed he was Hitler's fool.

Maybe Pilsudski would have thought differently and acted differently.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by gebhk » 10 May 2022 22:03

Hi Henryk

Thanks for the map. I too had that idea, but gave up in despair because I couldn't match up the photos and what i was reading with the maps. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said
The 1931 wig and German 1944 (based on data IV 42 and X 43) show the same.
as the 1936 WIG because they should be different. Given that WIG was located in Warsaw, I can't believe they didn't notice ruddy great buildings being knocked down and new ones being put up, so I can't explain it. However, not all is lost, if you take a look at another German 1944 update, you can clearly see the 1933 temporary building and some of the other additions and deletions. Bit ironic that when the map was printed (August 1944) most of these were either already burnt out shells or piles of rubble or were soon to become such.....
Last edited by gebhk on 11 May 2022 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 10 May 2022 22:52

As Mr. Gafencu wrote, Beck was an ardent, proud Polish patriot who had no love for Germany, as has wrongly been suggested.
Like everyone else (including France, Britain, the Soviet Union), he pursued the policy of detente with Germany.
And like everyone else (except the Soviet Union), he wasn't successful.

Beck pursued the policy not because it was good but the only possible. The only alternative was doing nothing.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 10 May 2022 22:53

wm wrote:
10 May 2022 21:32
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
10 May 2022 20:58
Mussolini has no successor. He was killed with no successor in 1945.
Who else in Italy.png
John Gunther, Who Else in Italy?
We all know that. The fact is that Mussolini disavowed Ciano in february 43. Ciano voted against his "father" the 25 july 43. He was no successor to Mussolini. Like Hitler, he did not want any successor. This kind of dicator is selfish, narcissistic and megalomaniac.
That the gossips said during the 30's that Ciano was the "dauphin" does not matter.
Hess was supposed to be the Hitler's successor, then Göring... finally it was Goebbels and Dönitz.

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