Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 14:08

ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 15:37
George L Gregory wrote:
30 Apr 2022 12:34
ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 17:32
Hm , Dutch was not a West-German dialect in 1908 .
What was the Dutch language classified as in 1908?
As an independent language ,which was not a German dialect .
No one said it was a German dialect.

Dutch has always been classified as Germanic language.

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 14:11

ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 15:46
The facts prove that what you call Austrians ( which did not exist ) did not consider themselves as Germans : they did not fight on the German side in 1870, they did not ask for an Anschluss .If they considered themselves to be Germans, they would be a part of Germany,they would live in Germany . They did not .The ''Austrian '' socialists became nationalists and socialists ONLY at the end of the war .
They didn't need to fight on the German side in 1870. In case you have forgotten, the Prussians excluded the Austrians from German affairs in 1866.

The Austro-fascists in the 1930s acknowledged that the Austrians were Germans but insisted on Austria being an independent state.
The absence of an Austrian national identity was one of the problems confronted when Austria became a country in November 1918. Before 1918 there had been no tradition among German-speaking Austrians of striving for national independence as a small German-speaking state separated from Austria-Hungary or separated from Germany. Within the context of the multiethnic and multilinguistic empire, the great majority of the inhabitants of what was to become Austria considered themselves "Germans" insofar as they spoke German and identified with German culture.
http://countrystudies.us/austria/61.htm
Ethnicity means nothing ,as you are the only who can decide who you are: German French, etc . Not the government .
The map of Austria-Germany is a German map and thus totally unreliable .
You're confusing nationality and ethnicity.

Why is the German map "totally unreliable"?

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 14:15

ljadw wrote:
01 May 2022 13:01
If the Austrians were Germans before 1918, they would have demanded and have got an Anschluss ,but they did not demand it before 1918, which means that they were not German before 1918 .
That the Allies forbade the Anschluss is irrelevant for the pre war period .
Today 's Austrians do not consider themselves as Germans .They mostly dislike the Germans .
They claimed to be ''German'' between 1918 and 1945 ,but not before 1918 and not after 1945 .
That the Habsburgers were Germans is also not correct : Franz Jozef did not ask for an Anschluss . The Habsburgers and German ( and Slavic ) nationalism were irreconcilable enemies : the Habsburgers ruled over a multinational empire where only 23 % of the population claimed to speak German ( the real figures is probably much less ) and as thus the Habsburgers had to be hostile to every form of nationalism .
They didn't need to ask for an Anschluss to consider themselves Germans. Many Bavarians wish for Bavaria to be independent, but the Bavarians are still Germans.

Mozart in 1782:
... I believe I am capable of bringing honor to any court—and if Germany, my beloved Fatherland, of which, as you know, I am proud, will not take me up—well, let France or England, in God's name become the richer by another talented German—and that to the disgrace of the German nation!
Franz Grillparzer after the unification of Germany:
I was born a German, am I still one? Only what I wrote in German, nobody takes that from me.
Franz Joseph during WW1:
I am a German Prince.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 15:41

What Franz Joseph said during WW 1 is irrelevant, or do you think that during WW1,he would have said : I am not a German Prince . Reality is that Franz Joseph was the ''ruler '' (with limited power ) of a state with a population that was in majority non German .
And about the Bavarians : what they wish today ( and it is not secession from Germany ) is irrelevant for what they wished 100 years ago : in 1923 von Kahr and his allies planned a coup with as motto :Loss von Berlin,this coup failed because Hitler started an other coup with as motto : Nach Berlin .
In 1866 the Bavarians refused a unified German state and fought on the side of Austria ,as did the Hanoverians . They became a part of the wrongly called German Empire in 1871 only because there was no alternative :they could not become a part of the empire of the Habsburgers and they could not survive on their own,independently from the new German state .They followed the maxim of ,was it McMillan? ,who said : if you can't beat them, join them .
About Mozart : there were in 1806 1800 independent ''German states '',thus what he said about his German fatherland was about something that did not exist .He lived in the archdiocese of Salzburg,one of the 1800 members of the Holy Roman Empire .
About Grillparzer : when he was born in 1791, there was no such thing as a German state.
And, about Bavaria : while outside Bavaria ( and Baden ) every year the Sedantag ( 2 September ) was celebrated enthusiastically, there was not much enthusiasm in Bavaria on 2 September .
This is an indication that a big part of the Bavarian population accepted the unification unwillingly .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 15:48

George L Gregory wrote:
01 May 2022 14:08
ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 15:37
George L Gregory wrote:
30 Apr 2022 12:34
ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 17:32
No one said it was a German dialect.

Dutch has always been classified as Germanic language.
Dutch was classified as a German dialect by nationalist German linguists .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 15:59

George L Gregory wrote:
01 May 2022 14:11
ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 15:46
The facts prove that what you call Austrians ( which did not exist ) did not consider themselves as Germans : they did not fight on the German side in 1870, they did not ask for an Anschluss .If they considered themselves to be Germans, they would be a part of Germany,they would live in Germany . They did not .The ''Austrian '' socialists became nationalists and socialists ONLY at the end of the war .
They didn't need to fight on the German side in 1870. In case you have forgotten, the Prussians excluded the Austrians from German affairs in 1866.



http://countrystudies.us/austria/61.htm

And you forget to add that after 1866 the Habsburgers refused to be involved in German affairs ,because their involvement was impossible ,as they ruled over a majority non German state .
And before 1866 and after 1806 when the Holy Roman Empire which existed only in the imagination of writers who considered themselves as historians,disappeared,the activities of the Habsburgers were mainly concentrated on the problems of their own state, which risked to disappear also ,and not on what was happening outside their borders where they had no authority .

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 16:40

ljadw wrote:
01 May 2022 15:41
What Franz Joseph said during WW 1 is irrelevant, or do you think that during WW1,he would have said : I am not a German Prince . Reality is that Franz Joseph was the ''ruler '' (with limited power ) of a state with a population that was in majority non German .
And about the Bavarians : what they wish today ( and it is not secession from Germany ) is irrelevant for what they wished 100 years ago : in 1923 von Kahr and his allies planned a coup with as motto :Loss von Berlin,this coup failed because Hitler started an other coup with as motto : Nach Berlin .
In 1866 the Bavarians refused a unified German state and fought on the side of Austria ,as did the Hanoverians . They became a part of the wrongly called German Empire in 1871 only because there was no alternative :they could not become a part of the empire of the Habsburgers and they could not survive on their own,independently from the new German state .They followed the maxim of ,was it McMillan? ,who said : if you can't beat them, join them .
About Mozart : there were in 1806 1800 independent ''German states '',thus what he said about his German fatherland was about something that did not exist .He lived in the archdiocese of Salzburg,one of the 1800 members of the Holy Roman Empire .
About Grillparzer : when he was born in 1791, there was no such thing as a German state.
And, about Bavaria : while outside Bavaria ( and Baden ) every year the Sedantag ( 2 September ) was celebrated enthusiastically, there was not much enthusiasm in Bavaria on 2 September .
This is an indication that a big part of the Bavarian population accepted the unification unwillingly .
You said that Austrians didn’t consider themselves to be Germans prior to 1918 and I gave you three examples of Austrians evidently considering themselves to be Germans prior to 1918 and the best you could do was go on a long tirade of piffle.

Pathetic.

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 16:48

ljadw wrote:
01 May 2022 15:59
And you forget to add that after 1866 the Habsburgers refused to be involved in German affairs ,because their involvement was impossible ,as they ruled over a majority non German state .
And before 1866 and after 1806 when the Holy Roman Empire which existed only in the imagination of writers who considered themselves as historians,disappeared,the activities of the Habsburgers were mainly concentrated on the problems of their own state, which risked to disappear also ,and not on what was happening outside their borders where they had no authority .
After 1866 the Austrians had no more to do with German affairs because they lost in the German war and Germany’s politics were all ruled by the Prussians.

It’s common knowledge that the Austrians weren’t willing to let go of their non-German territories.

You’re contradicting yourself again.

Putting aside for one moment your obsession with the non-German lands, what were the people that inhabited the German lands called?

It’s absolutely ridiculous for you to claim that Austrians or Österreichers didn’t exist prior to 1918. So what were the German-speaking people in Austria called?

Hold on a moment, so you don’t think the Holy Roman Empire even existed? :roll: If so, there is no point in engaging with you anymore because you just seem to be accepting things that suit your narrative and deny/ignore/dismiss any thing that contradicts your claims.

So far, your claims are:

Austrians didn’t exist prior to 1918 which is wrong.

Austrians only called themselves Germans after 1918 which is wrong.

The Holy Roman Empire only existed in the minds of historians which is wrong.

Etc, etc.

Stop peddling your nonsense.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 16:50

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
28 Apr 2022 23:15

ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 20:55
.
Yes. Belgium is divided between french people in Wallonie and germanic/hollandese people in Flanders.

I advise you very strongly never to tell such things in Wallonia and Flanders .
You know what they did in the Far West with people who said things that chocked the inhabitants :pitch and feathers is not pleasant .

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 16:54

Your peddling the same claptrap you did in October last year.

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&start=570#p2367997

I exposed your delusions and lies back then and I’m doing the same again.
Last edited by George L Gregory on 01 May 2022 16:57, edited 1 time in total.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 16:57

George L Gregory wrote:
01 May 2022 16:48
ljadw wrote:
01 May 2022 15:59
And you forget to add that after 1866 the Habsburgers refused to be involved in German affairs ,because their involvement was impossible ,as they ruled over a majority non German state .
And before 1866 and after 1806 when the Holy Roman Empire which existed only in the imagination of writers who considered themselves as historians,disappeared,the activities of the Habsburgers were mainly concentrated on the problems of their own state, which risked to disappear also ,and not on what was happening outside their borders where they had no authority .
After 1866 the Austrians had no more to do with German affairs because they lost in the German war and Germany’s politics were all ruled by the Prussians.

It’s common knowledge that the Austrians weren’t willing to let go of their non-German territories.

You’re contradicting yourself again.

Putting aside for one moment your obsession with the non-German lands, what were the people that inhabited the German lands called?

It’s absolutely ridiculous for you to claim that Austrians or Österreichers didn’t exist prior to 1918. So what were the German-speaking people in Austria called?

Hold on a moment, so you don’t think the Holy Roman Empire even existed? :roll: If so, there is no point in engaging with you anymore because you just seem to be accepting things that suit your narrative and deny/ignore/dismiss any thing that contradicts your claims.

So far, your claims are:

Austrians didn’t exist prior to 1918 which is wrong.

Austrians only called themselves Germans after 1918 which is wrong.

The Holy Roman Empire only existed in the minds of historians which is wrong.

Etc, etc.

Stop peddling your nonsense.
Your Holy Roman Empire was only a collection of 1800 (yes : 1800 ! ) independent states, who continually fought against each other ,and the president of this collection had no power outside his own state .
Your Holy Roman Empire had no government, no army , ...
It existed only on paper and no one took any notion of it .

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 16:59

ljadw wrote:
01 May 2022 16:57
Your Holy Roman Empire was only a collection of 1800 (yes : 1800 ! ) independent states, who continually fought against each other ,and the president of this collection had no power outside his own state .
Your Holy Roman Empire had no government, no army , ...
It existed only on paper and no one took any notion of it .
“Your”??? 8O :lol:

What you posted proves nothing.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 17:00

George L Gregory wrote:
01 May 2022 16:40
ljadw wrote:
01 May 2022 15:41
What Franz Joseph said during WW 1 is irrelevant, or do you think that during WW1,he would have said : I am not a German Prince . Reality is that Franz Joseph was the ''ruler '' (with limited power ) of a state with a population that was in majority non German .
And about the Bavarians : what they wish today ( and it is not secession from Germany ) is irrelevant for what they wished 100 years ago : in 1923 von Kahr and his allies planned a coup with as motto :Loss von Berlin,this coup failed because Hitler started an other coup with as motto : Nach Berlin .
In 1866 the Bavarians refused a unified German state and fought on the side of Austria ,as did the Hanoverians . They became a part of the wrongly called German Empire in 1871 only because there was no alternative :they could not become a part of the empire of the Habsburgers and they could not survive on their own,independently from the new German state .They followed the maxim of ,was it McMillan? ,who said : if you can't beat them, join them .
About Mozart : there were in 1806 1800 independent ''German states '',thus what he said about his German fatherland was about something that did not exist .He lived in the archdiocese of Salzburg,one of the 1800 members of the Holy Roman Empire .
About Grillparzer : when he was born in 1791, there was no such thing as a German state.
And, about Bavaria : while outside Bavaria ( and Baden ) every year the Sedantag ( 2 September ) was celebrated enthusiastically, there was not much enthusiasm in Bavaria on 2 September .
This is an indication that a big part of the Bavarian population accepted the unification unwillingly .
You said that Austrians didn’t consider themselves to be Germans prior to 1918 and I gave you three examples of Austrians evidently considering themselves to be Germans prior to 1918 and the best you could do was go on a long tirade of piffle.

Pathetic.
Mozart was not a citizen of the state of the Habsburgers but a citizen of Salzburg which was an independent state .And he was not an Austrian .

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 17:04

ljadw wrote:
01 May 2022 17:00
Mozart was not a citizen of the state of the Habsburgers but a citizen of Salzburg which was an independent state .And he was not an Austrian .
That’s because Austria didn’t exist as a nation-state.

What was he?

What about the other two Austrians I used as examples? Franz Grillparzer specifically said that he was an Austrian a year later after the quote I used.

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 01 May 2022 17:07

The term “Germans” referred to the peoples of Europe who spoke German and had a German culture. That is, ethnic Germans and they existed way before the unification of Germany in 1871.

Your claim that the Austrians who spoke German and a German culture prior to 1918 did not consider themselves to be Germans isn’t supposed by any reliable sources. When I ask you to provide a source you just go on a rant and claim because there wasn’t any major desire by politicians for an Anschluss as proof, LMAOOOOOO. Similarly, your idea that Austrians didn’t exist until 1918 is also utter claptrap.

I prefer to debate with someone who actually provides reliable sources and doesn’t dismiss things he doesn’t like or want to accept.

Return to “Propaganda, Culture & Architecture”