Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 29 Apr 2022 22:53

According to @ljadw “Austrians” did not exist, LMAOOOOOO.

The term ‘Cisleithania’ referred to the northern and western parts of Austria-Hungary.

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 30 Apr 2022 06:55

No : it does not make Austrian people a german people : French speaking inhabitants of Genéve are not French, they are Swiss,the same for the Quebecquois,the Irish who speak only English, the Spanish speaking inhabitants of Latin America .
Cisleithania is not Austria, but the censuses did not give language information about Austria,as present Austria did not exist before 1914, but about Cisleithania .
Cisleithania consisted of 15 regions,the biggest in surface and population being Galicia ,who were independent from each other,7 of these districts ,Länder, would later form Austria, but one can not combine the information of these Länder to have a accurate picture of Austria in 1910, as their borders were not the same in 1910 as in 2022,the same for their population.
Vienna was not a separate Land as it is today,but was a part of Lower Austria
South Tirol with its strong Italian minority/majority was a part of Tirol
Burgenland with a strong Hungarian minority was NOT a part of Cisleithania but of Transleithania and became a part of Austria only in 1920 .
And the German speaking inhabitants of Bohemia ,Moravia and Silesia,who did not consider themselves as Austrians? A lot of them were immigrating to present Austria . (Renner and Innitzer )How did they listen themselves ? We don't know .
There was also a mass immigration from non German speaking people, not only in Vienna .
And there were also German speaking people outside present Austria,also in Galicia ,people who did not consider themselves as Germans or Austrians .

George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 30 Apr 2022 08:47

@ljadw

Why do you think Austrians speak German?

To try and claim that Austrians aren’t Germans is like claiming that the Taiwanese aren’t Chinese.

It’s utter nonsense.

The fact that Slavs settled in some areas of modern-day Austria and Germany changes nothing. The Celtic peoples had settled in both places prior to the Germanic peoples and the Slavic peoples. So what?

You never did answer my question, which people claimed that Vienna was the “biggest Slavic city in Europe”? That’s a striking claim and I would like to see a reliable source to confirm that claim.

Whilst you may enjoy being a contrarian, it is somewhat amusing when you contradict yourself. :lol:

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 30 Apr 2022 09:43

I have answered your question : these people were Slavic nationalists .
A lot of Taiwanese do not consider themselves as Chinese, as do the Swiss inhabitants of Geneve : they speak French but are not French . The same for the majority of the members of the IRA who speak English : I would not tell them that they are British .
For most of its history Germany was not a nation but a linguistic and cultural region that was ''homogeneous ''.
Karl Renner was born in the actual Czechia,before ww 1 ,he was a Marxist and anti-nationalist, after ww 1 ,he became a nationalist and anti Semite,but he was born in an ''ethnic ''( meaningless word ) German family .
Cardinal Innitzer came from the same region: before 1938 he supported Austro-fascism and opposed the Anschluss, later he supported the Anschluss,and after WW 2 he condemned the Anschluss .He died at 80 years, but considered himself as a German only during 7 years .
There was a lot of mixing and code-switching in Bohemia and Moravia and certain regions of present Austria ,before 1914 82/90 % of Jews from Bohemia and Moravia claimed to be Germans/German speaking, after the war it was only some 40 % .
Austrians claimed to be Germans only after ww1 .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 30 Apr 2022 11:43

ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 06:55
No : it does not make Austrian people a german people : French speaking inhabitants of Genéve are not French, they are Swiss,the same for the Quebecquois,the Irish who speak only English, the Spanish speaking inhabitants of Latin America .
Cisleithania is not Austria, but the censuses did not give language information about Austria,as present Austria did not exist before 1914, but about Cisleithania .
Cisleithania consisted of 15 regions,the biggest in surface and population being Galicia ,who were independent from each other,7 of these districts ,Länder, would later form Austria, but one can not combine the information of these Länder to have a accurate picture of Austria in 1910, as their borders were not the same in 1910 as in 2022,the same for their population.
Vienna was not a separate Land as it is today,but was a part of Lower Austria
South Tirol with its strong Italian minority/majority was a part of Tirol
Burgenland with a strong Hungarian minority was NOT a part of Cisleithania but of Transleithania and became a part of Austria only in 1920 .
And the German speaking inhabitants of Bohemia ,Moravia and Silesia,who did not consider themselves as Austrians? A lot of them were immigrating to present Austria . (Renner and Innitzer )How did they listen themselves ? We don't know .
There was also a mass immigration from non German speaking people, not only in Vienna .
And there were also German speaking people outside present Austria,also in Galicia ,people who did not consider themselves as Germans or Austrians .
You are able to tell us that Austrians could be italians, jews, bohemians, hungarians, silesians, moravians, etc... everything but not german ? Such a strange thing...
You are able to tell us that there were Germans in Galicia who did not consider themselves as german... such a strange thing too.

What about Germans in Austria ?
You estimated that the Jews numbered more than 200.000 in Vienna in 1910 (whereas the census gives 175.300). Germans numbered how many in Vienna in 1910 according to you ? How many were in Austria (dont care about Cisleitania) ?

George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 30 Apr 2022 12:32

ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 09:43
I have answered your question : these people were Slavic nationalists .
Can you name any? What is your source for the claim?
A lot of Taiwanese do not consider themselves as Chinese, as do the Swiss inhabitants of Geneve : they speak French but are not French . The same for the majority of the members of the IRA who speak English : I would not tell them that they are British .
One cannot change his/her ethnicity. I don’t care whether someone wants to identify as a piece of cheese, a cat, an apple, etc, a spade is a spade and it’s as simple as that.

National identity and ethnicity are not mutually exclusive terms.
For most of its history Germany was not a nation but a linguistic and cultural region that was ''homogeneous ''.
Karl Renner was born in the actual Czechia,before ww 1 ,he was a Marxist and anti-nationalist, after ww 1 ,he became a nationalist and anti Semite,but he was born in an ''ethnic ''( meaningless word ) German family .
Cardinal Innitzer came from the same region: before 1938 he supported Austro-fascism and opposed the Anschluss, later he supported the Anschluss,and after WW 2 he condemned the Anschluss .He died at 80 years, but considered himself as a German only during 7 years .
There was a lot of mixing and code-switching in Bohemia and Moravia and certain regions of present Austria ,before 1914 82/90 % of Jews from Bohemia and Moravia claimed to be Germans/German speaking, after the war it was only some 40 % .
You seem to enjoy redefining terms, ignoring evidence and taking individual cases and applying them to a whole group. You rely on fallacious arguments.

A German ethnicity existed way before the nation-state of Germany was created in 1871 and it included the Austrians.

Why is ‘ethnic’ a “meaningless word”?

You have been shown a map of Austria-Hungary and the vast majority of Austria was inhabited by Germans and those Austrians considered themselves to be Germans. I don’t care whether you want to dispute this and that which is what you always do anyway, the facts are the facts and they triumph your opinions.
Austrians claimed to be Germans only after ww1 .
What is your source for that claim?

What is the point in posting such an obvious lie?

Don’t reply with a lengthy rant, provide a reliable source.

George L Gregory
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by George L Gregory » 30 Apr 2022 12:34

ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 17:32
Hm , Dutch was not a West-German dialect in 1908 .
What was the Dutch language classified as in 1908?

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 30 Apr 2022 15:36

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
30 Apr 2022 11:43
ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 06:55
No : it does not make Austrian people a german people : French speaking inhabitants of Genéve are not French, they are Swiss,the same for the Quebecquois,the Irish who speak only English, the Spanish speaking inhabitants of Latin America .
Cisleithania is not Austria, but the censuses did not give language information about Austria,as present Austria did not exist before 1914, but about Cisleithania .
Cisleithania consisted of 15 regions,the biggest in surface and population being Galicia ,who were independent from each other,7 of these districts ,Länder, would later form Austria, but one can not combine the information of these Länder to have a accurate picture of Austria in 1910, as their borders were not the same in 1910 as in 2022,the same for their population.
Vienna was not a separate Land as it is today,but was a part of Lower Austria
South Tirol with its strong Italian minority/majority was a part of Tirol
Burgenland with a strong Hungarian minority was NOT a part of Cisleithania but of Transleithania and became a part of Austria only in 1920 .
And the German speaking inhabitants of Bohemia ,Moravia and Silesia,who did not consider themselves as Austrians? A lot of them were immigrating to present Austria . (Renner and Innitzer )How did they listen themselves ? We don't know .
There was also a mass immigration from non German speaking people, not only in Vienna .
And there were also German speaking people outside present Austria,also in Galicia ,people who did not consider themselves as Germans or Austrians .
You are able to tell us that Austrians could be italians, jews, bohemians, hungarians, silesians, moravians, etc... everything but not german ? Such a strange thing...
You are able to tell us that there were Germans in Galicia who did not consider themselves as german... such a strange thing too.

What about Germans in Austria ?
You estimated that the Jews numbered more than 200.000 in Vienna in 1910 (whereas the census gives 175.300). Germans numbered how many in Vienna in 1910 according to you ? How many were in Austria (dont care about Cisleitania) ?
The census of 1910 gave a number of 6,7 million people who claimed that their colloquial language was German ( for which we have only their claim as proof ) and who lived on a territory that did not constitute a state in 1910.
I did say that there were almost 200000 Jews,better people considered as Jew following the 1910 census and the total population of Vienna was 2 million.
No one knows how many of the other ones considered themselves as German speaking ,because German as colloquial language does not mean that one considers oneself as a German ,neither is having German as native language . I have given you the example of the French speaking inhabitants of Switzerland and Canada .
About Germans in Austria ( I presume this means German nationals,as only people with a German identity card can be listed as Germans ) :as Austria did not exist in 1910, I can give you only the numbers of foreigners living in Cisleithania ,which was some 600000 .
In 1910 almost half of the population of Vienna was not born in Vienna, thus can be listed as immigrants .
We don't know how many of these had German as colloquial or native language ,neither do we know it of those who were born in Vienna .
As the German nationals were not included in the language questions, we don't also know how many of these spoke German .
You can continue to claim that when is having German as colloquial language, one is German , but that is totally wrong .
Take Madeleine Albright : she emigrated to the US in 1950, but became US citizen only in 1957,although she spoke as fluently English before 1957 as after 1957 .Till 1957 her nationality was Czech .
Not the language determines your citizenship , but the piece of paper that you receives when you are naturalized .
Thus , the 6.7 million people living in Cisleithania who spoke German and had not a German identity card were not Germans .


In 1900 the population of'' Vienna'' was 1,6 million ,410000 of them had emigrated from Bohemia and Moravia, 140000 from Translithania, 74000 from Galicia and what became later Yugoslavia,250000 from other parts of what is now Austria .
No one knows how many of them considered themselves as German,as Germans,as Austrian,as Austrians .

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 30 Apr 2022 15:37

George L Gregory wrote:
30 Apr 2022 12:34
ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 17:32
Hm , Dutch was not a West-German dialect in 1908 .
What was the Dutch language classified as in 1908?
As an independent language ,which was not a German dialect .

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 30 Apr 2022 15:46

George L Gregory wrote:
30 Apr 2022 12:32
ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 09:43
I have answered your question : these people were Slavic nationalists .
Can you name any? What is your source for the claim?
A lot of Taiwanese do not consider themselves as Chinese, as do the Swiss inhabitants of Geneve : they speak French but are not French . The same for the majority of the members of the IRA who speak English : I would not tell them that they are British .
One cannot change his/her ethnicity. I don’t care whether someone wants to identify as a piece of cheese, a cat, an apple, etc, a spade is a spade and it’s as simple as that.

National identity and ethnicity are not mutually exclusive terms.
For most of its history Germany was not a nation but a linguistic and cultural region that was ''homogeneous ''.
Karl Renner was born in the actual Czechia,before ww 1 ,he was a Marxist and anti-nationalist, after ww 1 ,he became a nationalist and anti Semite,but he was born in an ''ethnic ''( meaningless word ) German family .
Cardinal Innitzer came from the same region: before 1938 he supported Austro-fascism and opposed the Anschluss, later he supported the Anschluss,and after WW 2 he condemned the Anschluss .He died at 80 years, but considered himself as a German only during 7 years .
There was a lot of mixing and code-switching in Bohemia and Moravia and certain regions of present Austria ,before 1914 82/90 % of Jews from Bohemia and Moravia claimed to be Germans/German speaking, after the war it was only some 40 % .
You seem to enjoy redefining terms, ignoring evidence and taking individual cases and applying them to a whole group. You rely on fallacious arguments.

A German ethnicity existed way before the nation-state of Germany was created in 1871 and it included the Austrians.

Why is ‘ethnic’ a “meaningless word”?

You have been shown a map of Austria-Hungary and the vast majority of Austria was inhabited by Germans and those Austrians considered themselves to be Germans. I don’t care whether you want to dispute this and that which is what you always do anyway, the facts are the facts and they triumph your opinions.
Austrians claimed to be Germans only after ww1 .
What is your source for that claim?

What is the point in posting such an obvious lie?

Don’t reply with a lengthy rant, provide a reliable source.
The facts prove that what you call Austrians ( which did not exist ) did not consider themselves as Germans : they did not fight on the German side in 1870, they did not ask for an Anschluss .If they considered themselves to be Germans, they would be a part of Germany,they would live in Germany . They did not .The ''Austrian '' socialists became nationalists and socialists ONLY at the end of the war .
Ethnicity means nothing ,as you are the only who can decide who you are: German French, etc . Not the government .
The map of Austria-Germany is a German map and thus totally unreliable .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 01 May 2022 00:47

ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 15:36
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
30 Apr 2022 11:43
ljadw wrote:
30 Apr 2022 06:55
No : it does not make Austrian people a german people : French speaking inhabitants of Genéve are not French, they are Swiss,the same for the Quebecquois,the Irish who speak only English, the Spanish speaking inhabitants of Latin America .
Cisleithania is not Austria, but the censuses did not give language information about Austria,as present Austria did not exist before 1914, but about Cisleithania .
Cisleithania consisted of 15 regions,the biggest in surface and population being Galicia ,who were independent from each other,7 of these districts ,Länder, would later form Austria, but one can not combine the information of these Länder to have a accurate picture of Austria in 1910, as their borders were not the same in 1910 as in 2022,the same for their population.
Vienna was not a separate Land as it is today,but was a part of Lower Austria
South Tirol with its strong Italian minority/majority was a part of Tirol
Burgenland with a strong Hungarian minority was NOT a part of Cisleithania but of Transleithania and became a part of Austria only in 1920 .
And the German speaking inhabitants of Bohemia ,Moravia and Silesia,who did not consider themselves as Austrians? A lot of them were immigrating to present Austria . (Renner and Innitzer )How did they listen themselves ? We don't know .
There was also a mass immigration from non German speaking people, not only in Vienna .
And there were also German speaking people outside present Austria,also in Galicia ,people who did not consider themselves as Germans or Austrians .
You are able to tell us that Austrians could be italians, jews, bohemians, hungarians, silesians, moravians, etc... everything but not german ? Such a strange thing...
You are able to tell us that there were Germans in Galicia who did not consider themselves as german... such a strange thing too.

What about Germans in Austria ?
You estimated that the Jews numbered more than 200.000 in Vienna in 1910 (whereas the census gives 175.300). Germans numbered how many in Vienna in 1910 according to you ? How many were in Austria (dont care about Cisleitania) ?
The census of 1910 gave a number of 6,7 million people who claimed that their colloquial language was German ( for which we have only their claim as proof ) and who lived on a territory that did not constitute a state in 1910.
I did say that there were almost 200000 Jews,better people considered as Jew following the 1910 census and the total population of Vienna was 2 million.
No one knows how many of the other ones considered themselves as German speaking ,because German as colloquial language does not mean that one considers oneself as a German ,neither is having German as native language . I have given you the example of the French speaking inhabitants of Switzerland and Canada .
About Germans in Austria ( I presume this means German nationals,as only people with a German identity card can be listed as Germans ) :as Austria did not exist in 1910, I can give you only the numbers of foreigners living in Cisleithania ,which was some 600000 .
In 1910 almost half of the population of Vienna was not born in Vienna, thus can be listed as immigrants .
We don't know how many of these had German as colloquial or native language ,neither do we know it of those who were born in Vienna .
As the German nationals were not included in the language questions, we don't also know how many of these spoke German .
You can continue to claim that when is having German as colloquial language, one is German , but that is totally wrong .
Take Madeleine Albright : she emigrated to the US in 1950, but became US citizen only in 1957,although she spoke as fluently English before 1957 as after 1957 .Till 1957 her nationality was Czech .
Not the language determines your citizenship , but the piece of paper that you receives when you are naturalized .
Thus , the 6.7 million people living in Cisleithania who spoke German and had not a German identity card were not Germans .


In 1900 the population of'' Vienna'' was 1,6 million ,410000 of them had emigrated from Bohemia and Moravia, 140000 from Translithania, 74000 from Galicia and what became later Yugoslavia,250000 from other parts of what is now Austria .
No one knows how many of them considered themselves as German,as Germans,as Austrian,as Austrians .
I guess this will help you understand the problem :
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch%C3%B6sterreich

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 08:30

I know the article, but the article is about the post WW 1 period,not about the national problems of the Habsburg Empire .
In 1918 the political leaders of what is today Austria ,and of regions that did not become a part of today 's Austria,declared that they were now Germans and that they wanted to be a part of the German state .
Why did they decide this suddenly and why did they not decide this before WW1 ?
Before WW1 the best solution was to be a part of the empire of the Habsburgers,everything else was worse than that . Besides,it was the only possible situation . Secession was impossible,the same for an Anschluss .
In 1918,the empire of the Habsburgers had disappeared ,and they had to choose : an independent Austria or an Anschluss and they decided that an independent Austria was the worst solution and that an Anschluss was better .
This is simplified,but it is the core of the problem .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 01 May 2022 10:23

ljadw wrote:
01 May 2022 08:30
I know the article, but the article is about the post WW 1 period,not about the national problems of the Habsburg Empire .
In 1918 the political leaders of what is today Austria ,and of regions that did not become a part of today 's Austria,declared that they were now Germans and that they wanted to be a part of the German state .
Why did they decide this suddenly and why did they not decide this before WW1 ?
Before WW1 the best solution was to be a part of the empire of the Habsburgers,everything else was worse than that . Besides,it was the only possible situation . Secession was impossible,the same for an Anschluss .
In 1918,the empire of the Habsburgers had disappeared ,and they had to choose : an independent Austria or an Anschluss and they decided that an independent Austria was the worst solution and that an Anschluss was better .
This is simplified,but it is the core of the problem .
The Habsburg are germans.
The Austrians are germans.
The Austrians wanted the Anschluss because they were germans.
In 1918 Habsburg and Austrians did not decide anything, they lost the war. In 1918 the Allies imposed an independant Austria and forbade Anschluss.
The Austrians wanted the Anschluss because they were germans.

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 13:01

If the Austrians were Germans before 1918, they would have demanded and have got an Anschluss ,but they did not demand it before 1918, which means that they were not German before 1918 .
That the Allies forbade the Anschluss is irrelevant for the pre war period .
Today 's Austrians do not consider themselves as Germans .They mostly dislike the Germans .
They claimed to be ''German'' between 1918 and 1945 ,but not before 1918 and not after 1945 .
That the Habsburgers were Germans is also not correct : Franz Jozef did not ask for an Anschluss . The Habsburgers and German ( and Slavic ) nationalism were irreconcilable enemies : the Habsburgers ruled over a multinational empire where only 23 % of the population claimed to speak German ( the real figures is probably much less ) and as thus the Habsburgers had to be hostile to every form of nationalism .

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2022 13:19

Some excerpts from ''Austrian Response to German Nationalism '',published 4 years ago in the Retrospectjournal
Prussia (til 1848 ) and Austria were overtly hostile towards German nationalism .
A Pan-German state would split and destroy the Austrian Empire .
Austria was a creation of the bygone age of dynasty and aristocracy .

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