Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 28 Apr 2022 09:11

The big problem is that the census of 1910 (and before ) intentionally ( or not ) failed to mention the biggest group in Cisleithania ,which was the group of the bilinguals .
Example : the Jews who spoke Jiddish were listed as German speaking .
: people who said that their Umgangsprache was German, but whose Muttersprache was Czech were listed as German speaking .
About Vienna :
''Die Wiener Bevölkerung in den letzten Jahrhunderten '' gives the following figures from the census of 1900
Prozentanteil der in Wien geboren bevölkerung :
1856 : 43,8
1880 : 44,7
1900 : 46,4
This means that in 1900 53,6 % of the population of Vienna were immigrants .And, a big part of the other 46,4 % had a migrant background .
Almost half of these immigrants came from Bohemia and Moravia
In 1856 22,5 % of the total Viennese population
In 1880 26 %
In 1900 24,5 %
And the 53,6 % immigrants of 1900 had mostly not German as native language .
No wonder that Slavic nationalists called Vienna the biggest Slavic city of Europe.
Only 100000 inhabitants of Vienna declared that their colloquial language was Czechoslovakian, but in 1919/1920 only 150000 people left Vienna for the new Czechoslovakian state .
This means that one should be very careful with the interpretation of the results of the census.
From " Die Rolle der Statistik und der amtliche Blick ''

'' Auch das Phänomen der Mehrsprachigkjeit die in Österreich-Ungarn weit verbreitet war,wurde ignoriert,weshalb sich mehrsprachigePersonen für eine Sprache etnscheiden mussten . "
And, from the same source :
''In Cisleithanien wurde gefragt nach derUmggangssprache,in Ungarn nach der Muttersprache . ''
And, last point : the fact that there were people in Cisleithania with the same language and culture as the Germans from Germany, does not make them Germans .
They wanted to be a part of Germany only after their own state (Cisleithania ) had disappeared .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Apr 2022 17:16

ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 09:11
The big problem is that the census of 1910 (and before ) intentionally ( or not ) failed to mention the biggest group in Cisleithania ,which was the group of the bilinguals .
Example : the Jews who spoke Jiddish were listed as German speaking .
: people who said that their Umgangsprache was German, but whose Muttersprache was Czech were listed as German speaking .
About Vienna :
''Die Wiener Bevölkerung in den letzten Jahrhunderten '' gives the following figures from the census of 1900
Prozentanteil der in Wien geboren bevölkerung :
1856 : 43,8
1880 : 44,7
1900 : 46,4
This means that in 1900 53,6 % of the population of Vienna were immigrants .And, a big part of the other 46,4 % had a migrant background .
Almost half of these immigrants came from Bohemia and Moravia
In 1856 22,5 % of the total Viennese population
In 1880 26 %
In 1900 24,5 %
And the 53,6 % immigrants of 1900 had mostly not German as native language .
No wonder that Slavic nationalists called Vienna the biggest Slavic city of Europe.
Only 100000 inhabitants of Vienna declared that their colloquial language was Czechoslovakian, but in 1919/1920 only 150000 people left Vienna for the new Czechoslovakian state .
This means that one should be very careful with the interpretation of the results of the census.
From " Die Rolle der Statistik und der amtliche Blick ''

'' Auch das Phänomen der Mehrsprachigkjeit die in Österreich-Ungarn weit verbreitet war,wurde ignoriert,weshalb sich mehrsprachigePersonen für eine Sprache etnscheiden mussten . "
And, from the same source :
''In Cisleithanien wurde gefragt nach derUmggangssprache,in Ungarn nach der Muttersprache . ''
And, last point : the fact that there were people in Cisleithania with the same language and culture as the Germans from Germany, does not make them Germans .
They wanted to be a part of Germany only after their own state (Cisleithania ) had disappeared .
Another helpful map :
1908 map of the Continental West-Germanic dialect continuum
Karte_der_deutschen_Mundarten_(Brockhaus).jpeg
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ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 28 Apr 2022 17:32

Hm , Dutch was not a West-German dialect in 1908 .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Apr 2022 20:25

ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 17:32
Hm , Dutch was not a West-German dialect in 1908 .
What about austrian language ?

David Thompson
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by David Thompson » 28 Apr 2022 20:36

DavidFrankenberg -- When you include an illustration with your post, please give a citation to the source and a url (if available).

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 28 Apr 2022 20:55

There was no Austrian language,only a Austrian-Bavarian dialect.
The German that people used in Cisleithania was mostly used as Umgangssprache ( colloquial language ) while as Muttersprache mostly the local dialect was used . And this dialect was not only very local but could also be Czech,or an other non German dialect .
There were a lot of Czechs and Poles who used German as Umgangssprache ( German was the Lingua Franca ) but whose native language was Czech or Polish .Badeni ( PM of Cisleithania ) belonged to this group . Were they German speaking ?
There were some other people ( not only in Cisleithania ) whose native language was German but whose Umgangssprache was Czech,or Polish .Were they Czech or Polish speaking ?
There were also bilinguals who had two native languages and two colloquial languages . How would you list them ?
As I already said : the censuses ignored the biggest group in Cisleithania : the bilinguals .
The same situation existed and still exist in Flanders : where I am living there is an aristocratic family who uses Dutch as Umgangssprache in the town,French as Umgangssprache in Brussels, but whose native language is French .
How to list them ? French speaking ? Dutch speaking ?
The native language in present Austria outside Vienna was before WW 1 mainly ( not totally ) a German dialect. In Vienna one can assume that for more than 50 % of the population the native language was not German .
In 1900 55% of the population of Vienna were immigrants ,mostly from regions that today do not belong to present Austria . The situation today goes in the same direction .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Apr 2022 22:59

David Thompson wrote:
28 Apr 2022 20:36
DavidFrankenberg -- When you include an illustration with your post, please give a citation to the source and a url (if available).
Yep : here it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Germa ... khaus).jpg

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Apr 2022 23:15

ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 20:55
There was no Austrian language,only a Austrian-Bavarian dialect.
The native language in present Austria outside Vienna was before WW 1 mainly ( not totally ) a German dialect.
It's puzzling.
So, the austrian-bavarian dialect was a german dialect ?
ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 20:55
The same situation existed and still exist in Flanders : where I am living there is an aristocratic family who uses Dutch as Umgangssprache in the town,French as Umgangssprache in Brussels, but whose native language is French .
Yes. Belgium is divided between french people in Wallonie and germanic/hollandese people in Flanders.
How to list them ? French speaking ? Dutch speaking ?
I would qualify them as french, but the best solution is to ask them directly i guess.

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 29 Apr 2022 06:31

Take a Jewish tailor in Vienna who spoke Yiddish with his wife and children, German with some clients, Czech with other clients, some basic Hungarian with clients from Transleithania,etc..and when he moved to Krakov also Polish . How to list him ?
There was a lot of mobility ,Auswanderung and Einwanderung in both parts of the Habsburg Empire . 2 million emigrated to the US from 1901 to 1910, a lot returned .
Some 6000 Jews in Vienna in 1860, 50 years later almost 200000 .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 29 Apr 2022 11:46

ljadw wrote:
29 Apr 2022 06:31
Take a Jewish tailor in Vienna who spoke Yiddish with his wife and children, German with some clients, Czech with other clients, some basic Hungarian with clients from Transleithania,etc..and when he moved to Krakov also Polish . How to list him ?
There was a lot of mobility ,Auswanderung and Einwanderung in both parts of the Habsburg Empire . 2 million emigrated to the US from 1901 to 1910, a lot returned .
Some 6000 Jews in Vienna in 1860, 50 years later almost 200000 .


175.300 more exactly in VIenna in 1910. https://www.aejm.org/site/wp-content/up ... e-2012.pdf

Most of them came from out of Austria. They spoke yiddish and ukrainian polish or german. Since yiddish is close to the german language, they could learn german quite quickly. This explains the success of the viennese jews at the time and why so many immigrated there since 1867.

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 29 Apr 2022 14:20

1 For Vienna I have seen higher figures ,this can be explained that some sources count Vienna as it existed in 1910 and others the bigger present Vienna,which has absorbed several suburbs .Other problem is that we don't know if 173500 included or not the Halbjuden/Mischling Juden.
2 Most came not from what is actual Austria ,but from Galicia : there were in 1910 some 1, 3 million Jews in Cisleithania of whom 870000 in Galicia .
3 In 1900 some 30 % of the Viennese Jews were non-naturalized, thus foreigners,who were not citizens of Cisleithania/Transleithania .
Some sources :
The Jewish Middle Class in Vienna in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries
The Migration of Galician Jews to Vienna 1857-1880
The Jews of Galicia under Austrian-Polish Rule 1867-1918

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 29 Apr 2022 19:40

ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 20:55
There was no Austrian language,only a Austrian-Bavarian dialect.
The native language in present Austria outside Vienna was before WW 1 mainly ( not totally ) a German dialect.
I'm still a bit confused about that.
Did you mean that austrian-bavarian dialect was a german dialect ?

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 29 Apr 2022 19:45

ljadw wrote:
29 Apr 2022 14:20
1 For Vienna I have seen higher figures ,this can be explained that some sources count Vienna as it existed in 1910 and others the bigger present Vienna,which has absorbed several suburbs .Other problem is that we don't know if 173500 included or not the Halbjuden/Mischling Juden.
The 1910 census gives 173.500 jews in Vienna.
2 Most came not from what is actual Austria ,but from Galicia : there were in 1910 some 1, 3 million Jews in Cisleithania of whom 870000 in Galicia .
3 In 1900 some 30 % of the Viennese Jews were non-naturalized, thus foreigners,who were not citizens of Cisleithania/Transleithania .
Some sources :
The Jewish Middle Class in Vienna in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries
The Migration of Galician Jews to Vienna 1857-1880
The Jews of Galicia under Austrian-Polish Rule 1867-1918
Yes i did not say that they came from Austria, but from out of Austria. From Galicia of course, but also other jewish settlements like Volynhia and other parts of the empire, and from Russia/Poland also.

ljadw
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by ljadw » 29 Apr 2022 20:11

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
29 Apr 2022 19:40
ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 20:55
There was no Austrian language,only a Austrian-Bavarian dialect.
The native language in present Austria outside Vienna was before WW 1 mainly ( not totally ) a German dialect.
I'm still a bit confused about that.
Did you mean that austrian-bavarian dialect was a german dialect ?
Austrian-bavarian dialect was one of the German dialects .
How many people in Cisleithania used it is unknown,as the census gave only figures for the Umgangssprache which was the School German,the standard German, Hochdeutsch .
It is the same for the other languages .

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Why did the Nazis claim that Adolf Hitler was German?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 29 Apr 2022 22:11

ljadw wrote:
29 Apr 2022 20:11
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
29 Apr 2022 19:40
ljadw wrote:
28 Apr 2022 20:55
There was no Austrian language,only a Austrian-Bavarian dialect.
The native language in present Austria outside Vienna was before WW 1 mainly ( not totally ) a German dialect.
I'm still a bit confused about that.
Did you mean that austrian-bavarian dialect was a german dialect ?
Austrian-bavarian dialect was one of the German dialects .
So it makes austrian people a german people, isnt it ?
How many people in Cisleithania used it is unknown,as the census gave only figures for the Umgangssprache which was the School German,the standard German, Hochdeutsch .
It is the same for the other languages .
Cisleitania is not Austria. Right ?

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