De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

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Terry Duncan
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Terry Duncan » 14 Jan 2022 21:09

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 20:28
Oh yes : Downing Street 10 (= the PM ) can prevent sitting MPs from being again candidate ,as the nomination of candidate depends on a very small number of people ,as the local party leader,who would do a lot of things for a knighthood or a peerage.And the patience of the party leaders with Churchill was exhausted .
And,he was not deselected because there was no election in November because of the war .
No, Downing Street, PM, or whatever term you want to try to use for the head of the government, cannot prevent a sitting candidate from standing again. That is entirely the prerogative of the local Conservative party officers and members (I can speak from personal knowledge of how both major parties work in this respect, and in the distant past was a party officer in my local constituency). If the officers were to de-select the MP and then see the local membership support the MP, you would see a new set of officers and selection committee members appointed. If it were down to leaders of the parties who stood, you would have seen people like Bercow and Skinner vanish far earlier than they did. The local party may well follow a 'hint' from people higher up, but if the MP is popular with his local members and electorate they will keep him - this is why certain 'maverick' MP's do so much constituency work! It is very hard to remove a sitting MP with his local party onside as you then need to prove he has done something to bring the party into disrepute (an no, not agreeing on the party line did not count then) by some form of criminal conduct. Many officers in a local party to me wanted to replace the local MP in the 1990s, he is still there today as he has massive support from the local membership, though a lot less from the leadership of the party where a long-standing personal dislike exists.

Also, Churchill and Chamberlain happened to be relatively friendly both before the war and after it started, as shown by Churchill's own words about keeping Chamberlain in govt after he resigned as PM and at how devastated Churchill was by his death.

gebhk
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 14 Jan 2022 21:24

See post 399
Nothing in post 399 about 'Army Craiova' or Sikorski ordering R-S not to become commander of it or anything else. Am I missing something?
Last edited by gebhk on 14 Jan 2022 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 14 Jan 2022 21:44

Hi Terry

To your comprehensive answer I must add that in any event anybody can stand as an independent so not even the local party officers and members can prevent someone from standing, let alone Downing Street. As demonstrated by, among many, many others, "Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F'tang-F'tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel" who stood for the Crosby by-election in 1981.

However, in any event, as Ijadw agrees, there was no election, so there was no end or even interruption of Churchill's political career. This should put an end to this particularly pointless offtopic, but no doubt it will not.

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wm
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 14 Jan 2022 23:44

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 09:28
In October 1926 it claimed, without proofs,that Pilsudski was plotting to become king of Poland ..
Your information is consistently incorrect.
It was reported as rumors from Warsaw and there is no doubt such rumors were real.
Especially that some people really wanted that to happen.
Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 23.40.35.png
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 14 Jan 2022 23:52

gebhk wrote:
14 Jan 2022 21:24
Nothing in post 399 about 'Army Craiova' or Sikorski ordering R-S not to become commander of it or anything else. Am I missing something?
He means (in a hazy way) that Rydz-Śmigły returned (from the safety of his internment) to occupied Poland and it made the Government in Exile nervous.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 15 Jan 2022 02:53

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 20:34
Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 18:14
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:01
But the fact remains that Applebaum ,a left winger ( she worked for the Washington Post ) criticized Duranty and the NYT for their lies about the famine .
Strange, Ms Applebaum was, for a short while, a member of the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank.

Who you work for does not determine your political leanings, e.g. George F Will writes for the Washington Post as does Hugh Hewitt.
Who you work for does not determine your political leanings, but your political leanings determine who you work for . If she was a right winger she would not work for the Wapo,
And why did Applebaum leave the American Enterprise Institute ? Because it was pro Brexit .
Applebaum is hostile to Putin , Trump, Johnson, Brexit, the PIS, nationalism : that makes her a left winger .
Ah yes. I've noticed you've conveniently neglected George Will and Hugh Hewitt. Definite Left-wingers. :lol:

So Putinism is good. :lol: :lol: :lol: Good to know about your feelings about Soviet revanchism. :thumbsup:
Last edited by Gorque on 15 Jan 2022 03:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 15 Jan 2022 02:56

From what I am gathering there are 2 outcomes in Ludoworld:

1.) Ludo is always right, and,

2.) The rest of us are idiots.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 15 Jan 2022 03:02

David Thompson wrote:
14 Jan 2022 20:52
Let's start seeing citation to sources in this discussion; opinions and bickering over those notions are of little value to AHF or our many readers.
Hi David:

Unfortunately, I cannot provide the link to the Naval Institute's recollections of Drax's two part article "Mission to Moscow". I used to be able to, but it is now behind a paywall. Perhaps some other AHF members have access to this resource. Regrets only.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 15 Jan 2022 03:17

wm wrote:
14 Jan 2022 23:44
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 09:28
In October 1926 it claimed, without proofs,that Pilsudski was plotting to become king of Poland ..
Your information is consistently incorrect.
It was reported as rumors from Warsaw and there is no doubt such rumors were real.
Especially that some people really wanted that to happen.

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 23.40.35.png
Game, Set, Match!

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 15 Jan 2022 03:21

"BTW: I posted the NY Times article from 1926 that you referred to earlier; kindly show us the Communist/Marxist/Socialist/Leftist/(have I forgotten one?) tilt in the article."

So...I'm still waiting. Where is your rebuttal?

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 15 Jan 2022 07:15

Gorque wrote:
15 Jan 2022 02:53
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 20:34
Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 18:14
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:01
But the fact remains that Applebaum ,a left winger ( she worked for the Washington Post ) criticized Duranty and the NYT for their lies about the famine .
Strange, Ms Applebaum was, for a short while, a member of the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank.

Who you work for does not determine your political leanings, e.g. George F Will writes for the Washington Post as does Hugh Hewitt.
Who you work for does not determine your political leanings, but your political leanings determine who you work for . If she was a right winger she would not work for the Wapo,
And why did Applebaum leave the American Enterprise Institute ? Because it was pro Brexit .
Applebaum is hostile to Putin , Trump, Johnson, Brexit, the PIS, nationalism : that makes her a left winger .
Ah yes. I've noticed you've conveniently neglected George Will and Hugh Hewitt. Definite Left-wingers. :lol:

So Putinism is good. :lol: :lol: :lol: Good to know about your feelings about Soviet revanchism. :thumbsup:
Where did I defend Putin ????
And about Will : in 2016 he said that Hillary was better than Trump and in 2020 he said that he would vote for Biden .
Will a conservative ????
He works for the Wapo .
The Wapo conservative ??? It is anti Israel,thus anti Semitic.Thus conservative ???
And Hewitt : he lives in the past thinking it is the duty of the US to intervene everywhere on this planet to impose by force its values, at the cost of the American taxpayer .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 15 Jan 2022 07:43

wm wrote:
14 Jan 2022 23:44
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 09:28
In October 1926 it claimed, without proofs,that Pilsudski was plotting to become king of Poland ..
Your information is consistently incorrect.
It was reported as rumors from Warsaw and there is no doubt such rumors were real.
Especially that some people really wanted that to happen.

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 23.40.35.png
Using an article from 1928 to debunk an article from 1926 will not convince people .
The FACT is that on October 26 1926 the NYT titled : Pilsudski ''plots '' to be Polish king .
And there was no proof on October 1926 for this claim .
The title was NOT :Some people really wanted that to happen .
The title was : Pilsudski ''plots'' to be Polish king .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 15 Jan 2022 07:46

Gorque wrote:
15 Jan 2022 03:21
"BTW: I posted the NY Times article from 1926 that you referred to earlier; kindly show us the Communist/Marxist/Socialist/Leftist/(have I forgotten one?) tilt in the article."

So...I'm still waiting. Where is your rebuttal?
I am waiting to see the proof that I said that the article from 1926 was Communist/Marxist/Socialist/Leftist .
I have used this article as a proof that the NYT operated as a tabloid .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 15 Jan 2022 09:52

Gorque wrote:
13 Jan 2022 21:31
ljadw wrote:
13 Jan 2022 07:30
Is it to troll to say that the positions from Churchill and De Gaulle before the war,made what they said,totally irrelevant ?
De Gaulle was a discredited colonel of the French Army (you know how many colonels there were in France in 1939 ? )and I see that you have no notion of the opinions of the political parties about Churchill :
for the Tories he was a traitor and an intriguer:they had not forgotten what he had done between 1929 and 1931
for Labour he was only a disguised fascist ( he had supported Mussolini ) and had ordered the police to shoot on strikers
for the Liberals he was an old fashioned racist imperialist
for the intellectuals he was a warmonger
the public opinion had not forgotten his role in the abdication crisis.
Considering Churchill's past posts held and his current posting as a long-term MP, calling his opinion "irrelevant" borders upon ignorance. As far as De Gaulle is concerned, he was a forward thinking staff officer in the 30's who was also promoting, much like Guderian, the use of tanks and mechanization for the French Army. Once again, to render his opinions within the defense establishment "irrelevant," borders on ignorance.
Is it to troll to say that Mary Heaton Vorse was an ultra left American journalist whose writings about the situation in Europe were determined by her political opinions ?
Yes it is. What does her political leanings have to do she quoted Rydzs Smygly?? She was INTERVIEWING Rydzs Smygly and quoted what he SAID. Think about this. Did the New York Times retract her story because she misquoted Rydzs Smygly? The only person whose judgement is clouded by their political beliefs and preconceived notions is you.
Is it to troll to say that Vansittart was fired at the demand of Eden ?
And what was the opinion of Eden about his POSS ?
Eden said : "he is not balanced and in such a continual state of nerves that he will end up making would-be aggressors think the more of us as a potential victim. '' (source is Rhodes James )
There you go again Ludo, moving the goal posts again.

You stated "he did not represent HMG and was fired by Eden in 1938 and what he said were only assumptions,without any proof"

For your information, after his dismissal, Vansitarrt was given a newly created position of "Chief Diplomatic Adviser to His Majesty's Government" in which he served until 1941. Did you conveniently forget the bolded first part of your statement???
About Vansittart: on 9 October 1937,Chamberlain wrote in his letter to his sister Hilda that Vansittart was a man whose '' instincts were all against my policy ''
The source is John Charmley :Chamberlain and the Lost Peace P 34 and Note 11 on P 216.
The obvious conclusion is that after he was fired, Vansittart did not represent the views of the British Government and that his newly created position represented nothing .Unless you think that the British PM would use as his representant someone whose instincts were all against the policy of the PM.
There is even no proof that when Eden became again Foreign Secretary, he listened to/asked the opinions of Vansittart .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 15 Jan 2022 10:09

And, from Spartacus-Educational (Title :Robert Vansittart )
''In January 1938,Vansittart was ''kicked upstairs''assuming the high-sounding,but politically meaningless,title of chief diplomatic adviser to the government .''

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