De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
ljadw
Member
Posts: 13150
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 15:37

gebhk wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:04


However, I remain eager to find out what the "Army Craiova" that you mentioned might have been; and when and how marsz Smigly-Rydz was ordered by gen Sikorski not to lead it.
Both answers have been given .
And for Churchill : he would not be reelected MP in November 1939 as Downing Street had decided to eliminate him as a candidate .

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1420
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 15:37

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:34
Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:01
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 13:53
Even Anne Applebaum (who belongs to the same ideological group as the NYT journalist ) has severely criticized Duranty,and thus also the NYT .
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Anne Applebaum is one of the fiercest critics of Russia and President Putin.
And I believe that Putin and Russia are not communists .
How about Soviet revanchists?

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1420
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 15:40

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:37
gebhk wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:04


However, I remain eager to find out what the "Army Craiova" that you mentioned might have been; and when and how marsz Smigly-Rydz was ordered by gen Sikorski not to lead it.
Both answers have been given .
And for Churchill : he would not be reelected MP in November 1939 as Downing Street had decided to eliminate him as a candidate .
Unfortunately, there is no way for you to prove your counter-factual. How about instead we just stick to the facts.

"Just the facts ma'am, just the facts" Detective Joe Friday

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13150
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 15:48

Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:36
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 12:30
Vansittart and Drax did NOT go to Moscow for a pact to contain Nazi aggression against Poland,as everyone knew that such pact was impossible .
Actually they did and Drax documented in a two part article entitled "Mission to Moscow" It was published post war. It used to be a free read, but is now behind a paywall. However I did provide you with proof of Vansitartt having traveled to Moscow (see post 316 of this thread). I'll provide the link for you again. He is mentioned in the first paragraph.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 39v01/d334
I did not say that Drax and Vansittart did not go to Moscow, but that they did not go to sign a treaty with Stalin .
And, what Drax wrote later about his trip to Moscow ( as usual self-glorification ) is not important .There was no chance at all to have a treaty with Stalin . If there was even a very small chance, the delegation would have consisted of important people and not nullities and would have used an aircraft.No one took the mission serious. It was only an insult for the Soviets . From Berlin came the foreign secretary,from London and Paris 10th rang persons .
Besides : a treaty with Moscow was useless ,unless the West wanted to abandon Poland .

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1420
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 16:00

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:48
Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:36
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 12:30
Vansittart and Drax did NOT go to Moscow for a pact to contain Nazi aggression against Poland,as everyone knew that such pact was impossible .
Actually they did and Drax documented in a two part article entitled "Mission to Moscow" It was published post war. It used to be a free read, but is now behind a paywall. However I did provide you with proof of Vansitartt having traveled to Moscow (see post 316 of this thread). I'll provide the link for you again. He is mentioned in the first paragraph.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 39v01/d334
I did not say that Drax and Vansittart did not go to Moscow, but that they did not go to sign a treaty with Stalin .

I've bolded and colorized it for you to see. Those are your own words. You typed them a mere 2 hours ago. Have you forgotten so soon what you have written? If this isn't proof of your trolling, then I don't know what is.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13150
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 16:01

Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:37
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:34
Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:01
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 13:53
Even Anne Applebaum (who belongs to the same ideological group as the NYT journalist ) has severely criticized Duranty,and thus also the NYT .
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Anne Applebaum is one of the fiercest critics of Russia and President Putin.
And I believe that Putin and Russia are not communists .
How about Soviet revanchists?
Maybe.
But the fact remains that Applebaum ,a left winger ( she worked for the Washington Post ) criticized Duranty and the NYT for their lies about the famine .
And about the tabloid level of the NYT ,a small summary of ''mistakes '' of the NYT
The Russian Revolution : the NYT admitted that its news stories were not based on facts,but were determined by the hopes of the men who made up[ the journal .
Its refusal to tell the truth about the Holocaust .
The 1619 Project
The Los Alamos Investigation
The Anthrax attacks
Anti-Indian Sentiment
Errors of Alexandra Stanley
The Babylon Bee
Publication of leaked photos from the Manchester Bombing
Podcast about Abu Huzaifa
The reporting of the Duke University lacrosse case
And the rule is that for one known case there are at least 10 unknown ones .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13150
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 16:03

Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:00
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:48
Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:36
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 12:30
Vansittart and Drax did NOT go to Moscow for a pact to contain Nazi aggression against Poland,as everyone knew that such pact was impossible .
Actually they did and Drax documented in a two part article entitled "Mission to Moscow" It was published post war. It used to be a free read, but is now behind a paywall. However I did provide you with proof of Vansitartt having traveled to Moscow (see post 316 of this thread). I'll provide the link for you again. He is mentioned in the first paragraph.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 39v01/d334
I did not say that Drax and Vansittart did not go to Moscow, but that they did not go to sign a treaty with Stalin .

I've bolded and colorized it for you to see. Those are your own words. You typed them a mere 2 hours ago. Have you forgotten so soon what you have written? If this isn't proof of your trolling, then I don't know what is.
I said two times the same and I will repeat it a third time : Drax and Vansittart did not go to Moscow to sign a treaty with the Soviets .
And I can repeat it a fourth time if you wish .

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2032
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 14 Jan 2022 16:25

Both answers have been given .
Sorry, I do not see that. Can you identify the relevant posts?
And for Churchill : he would not be reelected MP in November 1939 as Downing Street had decided to eliminate him as a candidate .
Total tosh I'm afraid. Downing Street does not decide who stands or does not stand for election. In any event, since he was not deselected his career did not suffer interruption. So let's stick to the facts and forego alernative history. There is another section of this Forum for that.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1420
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 18:08

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:03
Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:00
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:48
Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:36
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 12:30
Vansittart and Drax did NOT go to Moscow for a pact to contain Nazi aggression against Poland,as everyone knew that such pact was impossible .
Actually they did and Drax documented in a two part article entitled "Mission to Moscow" It was published post war. It used to be a free read, but is now behind a paywall. However I did provide you with proof of Vansitartt having traveled to Moscow (see post 316 of this thread). I'll provide the link for you again. He is mentioned in the first paragraph.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 39v01/d334
I did not say that Drax and Vansittart did not go to Moscow, but that they did not go to sign a treaty with Stalin .

I've bolded and colorized it for you to see. Those are your own words. You typed them a mere 2 hours ago. Have you forgotten so soon what you have written? If this isn't proof of your trolling, then I don't know what is.
I said two times the same and I will repeat it a third time : Drax and Vansittart did not go to Moscow to sign a treaty with the Soviets .
And I can repeat it a fourth time if you wish .
Your original post was "Vansittart and Drax did NOT go to Moscow for a pact to contain Nazi aggression against Poland,as everyone knew that such pact was impossible"

Notice the moving of the goal-posts!

The then for a pact vs the now sign a treaty.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1420
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 18:14

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:01
But the fact remains that Applebaum ,a left winger ( she worked for the Washington Post ) criticized Duranty and the NYT for their lies about the famine .
Strange, Ms Applebaum was, for a short while, a member of the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank.

Who you work for does not determine your political leanings, e.g. George F Will writes for the Washington Post as does Hugh Hewitt.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1420
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 18:17

BTW: I posted the NY Times article from 1926 that you referred to earlier; kindly show us the Communist/Marxist/Socialist/Leftist/(have I forgotten one?) tilt in the article.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13150
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 20:28

gebhk wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:25
Both answers have been given .
Sorry, I do not see that. Can you identify the relevant posts?
And for Churchill : he would not be reelected MP in November 1939 as Downing Street had decided to eliminate him as a candidate .
Total tosh I'm afraid. Downing Street does not decide who stands or does not stand for election. In any event, since he was not deselected his career did not suffer interruption. So let's stick to the facts and forego alernative history. There is another section of this Forum for that.
Oh yes : Downing Street 10 (= the PM ) can prevent sitting MPs from being again candidate ,as the nomination of candidate depends on a very small number of people ,as the local party leader,who would do a lot of things for a knighthood or a peerage.And the patience of the party leaders with Churchill was exhausted .
And,he was not deselected because there was no election in November because of the war .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13150
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 20:34

Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 18:14
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:01
But the fact remains that Applebaum ,a left winger ( she worked for the Washington Post ) criticized Duranty and the NYT for their lies about the famine .
Strange, Ms Applebaum was, for a short while, a member of the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank.

Who you work for does not determine your political leanings, e.g. George F Will writes for the Washington Post as does Hugh Hewitt.
Who you work for does not determine your political leanings, but your political leanings determine who you work for . If she was a right winger she would not work for the Wapo,
And why did Applebaum leave the American Enterprise Institute ? Because it was pro Brexit .
Applebaum is hostile to Putin , Trump, Johnson, Brexit, the PIS, nationalism : that makes her a left winger .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13150
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 20:38

gebhk wrote:
14 Jan 2022 16:25
Both answers have been given .
Sorry, I do not see that. Can you identify the relevant posts?
See post 399

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23664
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by David Thompson » 14 Jan 2022 20:52

Let's start seeing citation to sources in this discussion; opinions and bickering over those notions are of little value to AHF or our many readers.

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”