De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

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ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 07:48

wm wrote:
13 Jan 2022 22:54
ljadw wrote:
13 Jan 2022 07:54
There is no proof that there was a shift in Hitler's attitude in March 1939

Actually, it could be found in many contemporary Polish diplomatic reports.
And
Germany, has lost its calculability, with which it was endowed even amidst difficult problems.
is one of the weaker ones.
That is an opinion,for which there is no proof : the German policy against Poland was the same as the one against CZ : bluffing and threatening to force CZ/Poland to accept its demands and to scare Britain . Only ,ONLY,if the threats did not work (September 1938/August 1939 ) would force be used :the decision to use force, depending on the possibility on a deal with Stalin, was made in August 1939, NOT in March : nothing special happened in March .
Polish diplomatic reports , diplomatic reports in general, do not give a correct report of the intentions/decisions of the opponent ,because, as all reports ,their contents are decided by what want their superiors : if the Foreign Office wants an alarmist report , they will have one .It is the same for the reports of the spy services : US secret services tell us that Russia will invade Ukraine,because Washington wants such messages .
Every one knew in March 1939 what Germany wanted , everyone knew this also in March 1933 and before .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 09:28

About the NYT : would the present Polish PM give an interview to the Guardian or the Independent, two left wing anti Poland newspapers ?
Why did Rydz give an interview to a pro communist US journalist from a pro communist US tabloid ( the NYT )?
The NYT was pro communist ,as it did hide intentionally the news about the famine in the USSR (the famine was not limited to Ukraine ) and the news was generally known : my father knew it from one of his teachers .
The NYT was nothing more than a tabloid :
examples
In October 1926 it claimed, without proofs,that Pilsudski was plotting to become king of Poland ..
In September 1941 (US were still neutral ) it claimed that Germany had lost in the Polish campaign 90000 dead and 200000 wounded (Polish propaganda figures ) although every one knows that only German figures can be used for German KIA and WIA and Polish figures for Polish KIA and WIA , etc .
About Rydz : after the defeat he blamed Pilsudski and was forbidden by Sikorski (head of the Polish government in exile ) to return to Poland to command the Army Craiova.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 10:44

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 07:30
Churchill was a TOTALLY ISOLATED long-standing MP and former member of a prior government and he would no longer be a candidate in the elections of November 1939 . Thus : what he said was totally irrelevant, he only represented himself . His own party disliked him .
Whatever the lies of the Churchillian propaganda,the fact is that before WW 2 the career of Winston Churchill was over : the Tories were in government since 1931 and they refused to make him a cabinet minister .
And about the Drax mission : it was a mission that was totally unimportant : Drax was a no one, so was Vansittart .
Well the above sure are some compelling arguements!!! :lol:

Let's see Vansitartt, Drax et al went to Moscow in order to negotiate a pact to contain Nazi agression against Poland. Yep, that mission was totally unimportant and they were nobodies.

And Churchill was totally irrelevant because he was disliked. Convincing.

And the career of Churchill in 1938-39 was over? Interesting.

And who was the P.M. from 1940 through 1945? :roll:

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 11:10

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 09:28
About the NYT : would the present Polish PM give an interview to the Guardian or the Independent, two left wing anti Poland newspapers ?
Why did Rydz give an interview to a pro communist US journalist from a pro communist US tabloid ( the NYT )?

Some off-topic questions that you have posed. Now since you have asked them, kindly answer them yourself. I'll await what your research turns up.

The NYT was pro communist ,as it did hide intentionally the news about the famine in the USSR (the famine was not limited to Ukraine ) and the news was generally known : my father knew it from one of his teachers .

And your proof to back up this assertion is....?

The NYT was nothing more than a tabloid :
examples
In October 1926 it claimed, without proofs,that Pilsudski was plotting to become king of Poland ..
In September 1941 (US were still neutral ) it claimed that Germany had lost in the Polish campaign 90000 dead and 200000 wounded (Polish propaganda figures ) although every one knows that only German figures can be used for German KIA and WIA and Polish figures for Polish KIA and WIA , etc .
So let's see, you've managed to provide, without supporting documentation, two examples over 15 years worth of articles, as proof of tabloid reporting. That means that most of its articles then were accurate. I'm sure the N.Y. Times would be thrilled to read about your glowing confirmation about their accuracy. But seriously, where is the back up? At least provide the dates of the aforementioned articles. I'd like to read them, and perhaps others might as well.

About Rydz : after the defeat he blamed Pilsudski and was forbidden by Sikorski (head of the Polish government in exile ) to return to Poland to command the Army Craiova.
And the above is supposed to prove what?

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 14 Jan 2022 12:02

Army Craiova.
Never heard of that one. I and, I am sure, everyone else, would be very interested to hear about this previously unknown organisation. Can you provide more details?
was forbidden by Sikorski (head of the Polish government in exile ) to return to Poland to command the Army Craiova
Can you provide more details? I was not aware thet Sikorski was in communication with R-S during the latter's internement in Romania and subsequent stay in Hungary. I am aware, of course, that Sikorski was not in favour of R-S returning to Poland, but that is another matter.
Last edited by gebhk on 14 Jan 2022 21:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 14 Jan 2022 12:15

In September 1941 (US were still neutral ) it claimed that Germany had lost in the Polish campaign 90000 dead and 200000 wounded
Do you have a reference to this article? The New York Times reported on 28 September 1939 that, according to the Polish authorities, German losses in the Polish Campaign were 90,000 dead, 400 tanks and 500 aircraft but that is a different date and different matter.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 12:30

Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 10:44
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 07:30
Churchill was a TOTALLY ISOLATED long-standing MP and former member of a prior government and he would no longer be a candidate in the elections of November 1939 . Thus : what he said was totally irrelevant, he only represented himself . His own party disliked him .
Whatever the lies of the Churchillian propaganda,the fact is that before WW 2 the career of Winston Churchill was over : the Tories were in government since 1931 and they refused to make him a cabinet minister .
And about the Drax mission : it was a mission that was totally unimportant : Drax was a no one, so was Vansittart .
Well the above sure are some compelling arguements!!! :lol:

Let's see Vansitartt, Drax et al went to Moscow in order to negotiate a pact to contain Nazi agression against Poland. Yep, that mission was totally unimportant and they were nobodies.

And Churchill was totally irrelevant because he was disliked. Convincing.

And the career of Churchill in 1938-39 was over? Interesting.

And who was the P.M. from 1940 through 1945? :roll:
Vansittart and Drax did NOT go to Moscow for a pact to contain Nazi aggression against Poland,as everyone knew that such pact was impossible .
That Churchill became PM in 1940,does not debunk the fact that before September 1939 his career was over : the Conservative Party ruled between 1931 and 1939 and refused to have Churchill in the government .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 12:38

About ''King '' Pilsudski :
see the NYT of October 26 1926:
Title :
Pilsudski'' plots'' to be Polish King .
Reports rife in Warsaw as he goes to Monarchist Gathering .

This is on a tabloid level .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 13:53

About the hostility of Sikorski to Rydz :
''Sikorski declared in a telegram to general Grot-Rowecki (leader of the Armia Krajova ) :The Polish government will regard a sojourn of the Marshall in Poland as a sabotage of its work in the country ....."
Source : Wiki : Eduard Rydz-Smigly .
About the interview with the NYT :
the NYT was a pro Soviet and pro communist newspaper (its editors knew that Duranty told lies about the famine ),Poland ,OTOH, was hostile to the Soviet Union and Communism, but still its military commander gave an interview to a marxist journalist of a marxist newspaper .
Even Anne Applebaum (who belongs to the same ideological group as the NYT journalist ) has severely criticized Duranty,and thus also the NYT .

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 14:48

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 12:38
About ''King '' Pilsudski :
see the NYT of October 26 1926:
Title :
Pilsudski'' plots'' to be Polish King .
Reports rife in Warsaw as he goes to Monarchist Gathering .

This is on a tabloid level .
Thank you Ludo, I will look up the article and let you know what I find. :thumbsup:

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 14:58

Hi Ludo:

Below are the attached snippings of the article.
Pilsudski King 1.PNG
Pilsudski King 2.PNG
Pilsudski King 3.PNG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 15:01

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 13:53
Even Anne Applebaum (who belongs to the same ideological group as the NYT journalist ) has severely criticized Duranty,and thus also the NYT .
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Anne Applebaum is one of the fiercest critics of Russia and President Putin.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 14 Jan 2022 15:04

Hi Ijadw
That Churchill became PM in 1940,does not debunk the fact that before September 1939 his career was over
Unless you are reinventing the English language again, that is precisely what it debunks. And the fact that he was an MP during this time, means his career was not even interrupted. A more accurate description might be that his career was at low ebb.

However, I remain eager to find out what the "Army Craiova" that you mentioned might have been; and when and how marsz Smigly-Rydz was ordered by gen Sikorski not to lead it.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2022 15:34

Gorque wrote:
14 Jan 2022 15:01
ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 13:53
Even Anne Applebaum (who belongs to the same ideological group as the NYT journalist ) has severely criticized Duranty,and thus also the NYT .
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Anne Applebaum is one of the fiercest critics of Russia and President Putin.
And I believe that Putin and Russia are not communists .

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 14 Jan 2022 15:36

ljadw wrote:
14 Jan 2022 12:30
Vansittart and Drax did NOT go to Moscow for a pact to contain Nazi aggression against Poland,as everyone knew that such pact was impossible .
Actually they did and Drax documented in a two part article entitled "Mission to Moscow" It was published post war. It used to be a free read, but is now behind a paywall. However I did provide you with proof of Vansitartt having traveled to Moscow (see post 316 of this thread). I'll provide the link for you again. He is mentioned in the first paragraph.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 39v01/d334

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