De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 07 Jan 2022 16:06

Vansittart was part of a delegation sent the Soviet Union in mid 1939 to negotiate a pact with the Soviet Union against Germany. He was so incompetant that they rehired him.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 39v01/d334

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2022 07:43

wm wrote:
07 Jan 2022 14:41
ljadw wrote:
07 Jan 2022 13:44
About Vansittart : he did not represent HMG and was fired by Eden in 1938 and what he said were only assumptions,without any proof .And when Vansittart said that it was difficult to see the advantages for Germany by antagonizing Stalin, he proves his incompetence :
So the Times knew but Vansittart didn't!
Those British - ignorant as usual!

german-soviet protocol .jpgGermany extends credit to Soviets.png
This does NOT prove a political rapprochement between the USSR and Germany .
Stalin also sold a lot of oil to Mussolini,but still both countries were fighting against each other in Spain .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2022 08:25

German exports to the USSR (in millions of RM )
1930 : 431
1931 : 762
1932 : 626
1933 : 282
1934 : 63
1935 : 39
1936 : 126
1937 : 117
1938 : 34
1939 : 31
1940 : 216
Imports ( same years (
436
309
271
194
223
202
93
65
53
30
391
Source : Statistisches Jahrbuch für das Deutsche Reich and I have more faith in the Statistiches Jahrbuch than in the New York Times .
It would be totally suicidal to draw any political conclusions from these figures .
The Argentine generals sold grain to the Soviets : that does not make them communists .The dictators of Mexico sold oil to Germany:that does not make them Nazis . US sold oil to Japan : that does not make them friends of Tojo .The Soviets collaborated with SA during apartheid to stabilize the price of gold : that does not make them allies of Verwoerd .
Franco did business with the Soviets but at the same time he ordered the execution of one of the leaders of the Spanish communists .
The Soviets sold in the sixties manganese to the ''revanchardists '' of West Germany .
Henry Ford did business with Stalinist Russia.
Etc,etc,......

Sid Guttridge
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Jan 2022 09:09

Hi ljadw,

"Dictators of Mexico"? At that stage Mexico was replacing its presidents on a regular constitutional basis. That said, you are right, while then President Cardenas was amongst the strongest supporters of the Spanish Republicans, in 1938-39 he came to pragmatic deals with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy to barter oil with them.

Sid.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2022 10:49

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Jan 2022 09:09
Hi ljadw,

"Dictators of Mexico"? At that stage Mexico was replacing its presidents on a regular constitutional basis. That said, you are right, while then President Cardenas was amongst the strongest supporters of the Spanish Republicans, in 1938-39 he came to pragmatic deals with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy to barter oil with them.

Sid.
I am not convinced that Calles and Cardenas were democrats . The Cristero war continued and in 1934 Article 3 of the Mexican constitution was amended to content the following :
''The education imparted by the State shall be a socialist one and exclude all religious doctrine .....''.
Stalin would not object .
And at the same time the government continued the expropriation of the oil fields and the latifundia .

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wm
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 08 Jan 2022 13:59

ljadw wrote:
08 Jan 2022 08:25
The Argentine generals sold grain to the Soviets : that does not make them communists .The dictators of Mexico sold oil to Germany:that does not make them Nazis . US sold oil to Japan : that does not make them friends of Tojo .The Soviets collaborated with SA during apartheid to stabilize the price of gold : that does not make them allies of Verwoerd .
Franco did business with the Soviets but at the same time he ordered the execution of one of the leaders of the Spanish communists .
The Soviets sold in the sixties manganese to the ''revanchardists '' of West Germany .
Henry Ford did business with Stalinist Russia.

Well, according to popular history - in the thirties Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany were irreconcilable enemies (of course readers of The New York Times knew better than that).

In fact, both countries waged a brutal propaganda war against each other, where even the top Soviet diplomat called the Germans undiplomatically brigands, criminals, murders in public.
The Soviets didn't wage such war on Italy, Spain, or Henry Ford.
But in the shadows, it was business as usual where the Soviets were so eager that experiencing economic problems Germany was able to satisfy only a small percentage of their orders.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 08 Jan 2022 14:49

Henry Ford did business with Stalinist Russia.
And Standard Oil of the USA supplied 500 tons of tetraethyl lead to the Luftwaffe in 1938 allowing it to fly in 1939, supplied IG Farben with the knowhow to make same and synthetic rubber, refused to produce desperately needed synthetic rubber for the US when she enterd the war, because he had transferred the patents to IG Farben. Standard Oil also supplied Nazi Germany with US oil, apart from a brief hiatus Jan-May 1944, caused by public outcry, throughout the war. By claiming patent rights on behalf of IG Farben, Standatd Oil also managed to interfere with other vital US war production. This too did not make them Nazis, but it sure as hell facilitated Nazi aggression and supported the German (and, to a leasser extent, Japanese) war efforts.

However, what on earth all this whataboutism has to do with French policy, much lesas gen De Gaulle's views on the matter, is utterly beyond me.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Jan 2022 15:15

Hi ljadw,

You didn't say anything about Cardenas and Calles as not being democrats. You talked about them (presumably) being "dictators of Mexico". Mexico was run for about 70 years by the improbably named Institutional Revolutionary Party. (How it could be both "Instiutional" and "Revolutionary" is a mystery to me!). All Presidents, including Cardenas and Calles came from this party during these decades. However, they accepted existing constitutional norms and stood down as these required. Mexico was more of an autocracy during this period, with the Presidency being passed around within the PRI's leadership.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 08 Jan 2022 15:21

gebhk wrote:
08 Jan 2022 14:49
Henry Ford did business with Stalinist Russia.
And Standard Oil of the USA supplied 500 tons of tetraethyl lead to the Luftwaffe in 1938 allowing it to fly in 1939, supplied IG Farben with the knowhow to make same and synthetic rubber, refused to produce desperately needed synthetic rubber for the US when she enterd the war, because he had transferred the patents to IG Farben. Standard Oil also supplied Nazi Germany with US oil, apart from a brief hiatus Jan-May 1944, caused by public outcry, throughout the war. By claiming patent rights on behalf of IG Farben, Standatd Oil also managed to interfere with other vital US war production. This too did not make them Nazis, but it sure as hell facilitated Nazi aggression and supported the German (and, to a leasser extent, Japanese) war efforts.
Although those were companies (not countries) acting in their best interests in time of peace.
The Standard Oil story doesn't seem to be correct. It was the German company called the German-American Petroleum Company that did that.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2022 16:18

wm wrote:
08 Jan 2022 13:59
ljadw wrote:
08 Jan 2022 08:25
The Argentine generals sold grain to the Soviets : that does not make them communists .The dictators of Mexico sold oil to Germany:that does not make them Nazis . US sold oil to Japan : that does not make them friends of Tojo .The Soviets collaborated with SA during apartheid to stabilize the price of gold : that does not make them allies of Verwoerd .
Franco did business with the Soviets but at the same time he ordered the execution of one of the leaders of the Spanish communists .
The Soviets sold in the sixties manganese to the ''revanchardists '' of West Germany .
Henry Ford did business with Stalinist Russia.

Well, according to popular history - in the thirties Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany were irreconcilable enemies (of course readers of The New York Times knew better than that).

In fact, both countries waged a brutal propaganda war against each other, where even the top Soviet diplomat called the Germans undiplomatically brigands, criminals, murders in public.
The Soviets didn't wage such war on Italy, Spain, or Henry Ford.
But in the shadows, it was business as usual where the Soviets were so eager that experiencing economic problems Germany was able to satisfy only a small percentage of their orders.
Doing business with an irreconcilable enemy is perfectly possible : NK is trading with SK and the US. Pilsudski did business with Stalin .
The Soviets fought in Spain against Italy and Germany but at the same time the USSR was selling oil to these countries .
Soviet trade was independent from Soviet foreign policy while German foreign policy to the USSR was based on its domestic policy .
Stalin was afraid that the West would push Germany to a war with the SU (Marxism said that the Depression increased the danger of war ),to prevent this, the USSR entered the League,after Hitler left, to create disunion in the West and prevent a coalition between France, Britain and the UK against Germany .
Doing business with an enemy transforms you not in his friend .
Stopping to do business with an enemy is not a proof that the decision was politically motivated .
The German export to the SU fell from 762 million of RM in 1931 to 282 million in 1933 :this does not prove a hostility between the Weimar Republic and the Soviets .
OTOH,the same export went up from 39 million RM to 117 million RM between 1935 and 1937 ,but this does not indicate that both countries were now palls .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 08 Jan 2022 17:38

I've said that "Stalin sought an understanding with Germany in the thirties" and the trade was part of it.
Not that doing business with an irreconcilable enemy is impossible.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2022 18:47

gebhk wrote:
08 Jan 2022 14:49
Henry Ford did business with Stalinist Russia.
And Standard Oil of the USA supplied 500 tons of tetraethyl lead to the Luftwaffe in 1938 allowing it to fly in 1939, supplied IG Farben with the knowhow to make same and synthetic rubber, refused to produce desperately needed synthetic rubber for the US when she enterd the war, because he had transferred the patents to IG Farben. Standard Oil also supplied Nazi Germany with US oil, apart from a brief hiatus Jan-May 1944, caused by public outcry, throughout the war. By claiming patent rights on behalf of IG Farben, Standatd Oil also managed to interfere with other vital US war production. This too did not make them Nazis, but it sure as hell facilitated Nazi aggression and supported the German (and, to a leasser extent, Japanese) war efforts.

However, what on earth all this whataboutism has to do with French policy, much lesas gen De Gaulle's views on the matter, is utterly beyond me.
1 What De Gaulle and Churchill said before the war,was given their position,totally irrelevant .
2 It was also wrong .
3 I expected,and I was wright,that Polish members would use this thread to repeat the wrong claim that B + F betrayed Poland .
4 About this ''whataboutism '' : when I said that til the Summer of 1939 ,Poland was not in danger,WM used the (decreasing ) trade between Germany and the Soviets as a proof that they were palls ,although you can't use trade as a proof for political points of view :that's why I gave the example of Ford : no one said that because he did business with Stalin,he was a sympathisant of Stalin . Thus when Stalin did business with Hitler, that makes him not a friend of Hitler .
To do business with a dictator is not a proof that yoou are on his side .Not to do such business /or to stop them,is not a proof that you are an enemy of the dictator .
5 About Standard Oil:
a what they did before the war was legal
b there is no proof that what they did during the war was illegal,as the justice of FDR (an enemy of Standard Oil ) did not put the leaders of Standard Oil in prison .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2022 18:53

wm wrote:
08 Jan 2022 17:38
I've said that "Stalin sought an understanding with Germany in the thirties" and the trade was part of it.
Not that doing business with an irreconcilable enemy is impossible.
Stalin trading with Hitler is NOT a proof that he sought an understanding with Hitler .Stalin was trading with everyone, but did not seek understanding with anyone .
Besides : there was no need for Stalin to seek an understanding with Hitler or the opposite .
Nazism /Fascism and Communism were irreconcilable enemies , but that did not prevent them to do business .
The USSR was an irreconcilable enemy of West Germany but still did sell it manganese .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2022 19:03

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Jan 2022 15:15
Hi ljadw,

You didn't say anything about Cardenas and Calles as not being democrats. You talked about them (presumably) being "dictators of Mexico". Mexico was run for about 70 years by the improbably named Institutional Revolutionary Party. (How it could be both "Instiutional" and "Revolutionary" is a mystery to me!). All Presidents, including Cardenas and Calles came from this party during these decades. However, they accepted existing constitutional norms and stood down as these required. Mexico was more of an autocracy during this period, with the Presidency being passed around within the PRI's leadership.

Cheers,

Sid.
NO : the fact that Cardenas and Calles accepted THEIR constitutional norms (which excluded the opposition )is not a proof that they were democrats but a proof that they were dictators .
If Stalin had resigned after the required number of years and was succeeded by Molotov who did the same, the USSR would still remain a dictatorship .
What happened in Mexico was that that the rule of a dictator was replaced by the dictatorial rule of the party of the dictator, to prevent the intervention of the military .
But Calles and Cardenas (elected by their cronies and not by the Mexican people ) still continued the persecution of their opponents till they retired .
Cardenas could have decided to remain dictator til his death,but for this he would need the help of the army,which he did not trust .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 08 Jan 2022 20:25

What De Gaulle and Churchill said before the war,was given their position,totally irrelevant .
The question is what De Gaulle said/thought not whether it was 'relevant', whatever that means.
It was also wrong .
So presumably, to have an opinion on what De Gaulle said, you know what he said on the subject? Unlike the rest of us. Please share, since that is what this topic is about, after all, supposedly.
About Standard Oil:
a what they did before the war was legal
So what? Doesn't change the fact that they facilitated German and Japanese aggresion, aided their war efforts and hampered the US war effort.
there is no proof that what they did during the war was illegal,as the justice of FDR (an enemy of Standard Oil ) did not put the leaders of Standard Oil in prison .
Err, the fact that the SO lawyers negotiated paying out-of-court fines to avoid litigation and that the company's president was forced to resign, rather suggests there was. In any event, legal or not, it doesn't change the fact that an American company (and not the only one) made a very significant contribution to the war efforts of the US's enemies, both before the war and during it.
Last edited by gebhk on 09 Jan 2022 09:25, edited 1 time in total.

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