Was the death toll in China inflated?

[manfredzhang]

Hi manfredzhang,

This "most decent force" would be the same Japanese who encouraged opium addiction in occupied areas for some 40 years, conducted the Rape of Nanjing, and whose Unit 731 conducted biological warfare experiments on Chinese civilians for nearly a decade?

That is to set the bar pretty low!

Cheers,

Sid.

Don’t you know the Communist Chinese was engaging in Opium plantation and trading in the 1930s and 1940s?

Rape of Nanjing? Don’t you know Iris Chang’s book was full of BS?

Here is Lewis Smythe’s survey almost immediately after the Nanking incident:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/War_Dama ... _Mar._1938

Table 4 shows the civilian deaths inside the Nanking city while Table 25 shows the civilian deaths in the rural area. Total civilian deaths are around 32K missing included.

On contrast, the National Chinese government set fire in Changsha in Nov 1938. That incident alone killed the number of Chinese civilians almost equivalent to those killed by Japanese in Nanking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Changsha_fire

And the 1938 Yellow River flood again perpetrated by the National Chinese government killed between 400K to 900K Chinese civilians. More than 10 to 30 times the deaths in Nanking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yellow_River_flood

Oh you think Unit 731 conducted biological warfare experiments on Chinese civilians was bad?

How about live organ harvesting by the Chinese Communists in the 21st century?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_har ... s_in_China

Now tell me if my bar is too low…

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi manfredzhang,

The first thing to say is that all the incidents you mention relevant to WWII only occurred because of the Japanese presence in China.

You ask, "Don’t you know the Communist Chinese was engaging in Opium plantation and trading in the 1930s and 1940s?" True. Some Nationalist warlords did the same, though Chiang himself was opposed.

However, it was consistent Japanese Government policy from the 1890s to encourage drug use in occupied areas of China to help hinder the population's ability to resist.

I didn't mention Iris Chang's book at all. The "Rape of Nanking" was known about over half a century before it was published. What is your particular objection to it?

Lewis Smyth says that 90% of the civilian deaths in Nanking occurred after the Japanese occupation. He states repeatedly that he believes his figures are necessarily an underestimate because by the time he did his survey the Chinese population was probably too cowed by the Japanese occupation to be truly forthcoming.

You post, "Changsha in Nov 1938. That incident alone killed the number of Chinese civilians almost equivalent to those killed by Japanese in Nanking." So, not quite as bad as the Japanese in Nanking, then?

Would the Yellow River dykes have been opened if the Japanese Army hadn't been in the country? That said, it certainly proved to be a spectacularly damaging and unnecessary decision.

You ask, "Oh you think Unit 731 conducted biological warfare experiments on Chinese civilians was bad?" Yup. Don't you?

"Organ harvesting" seems to have begun half a century or more after WWII. What is its relevance to China in WWII?

Cheers,

Sid.

[manfredzhang]

Hi manfredzhang,

The first thing to say is that all the incidents you mention relevant to WWII only occurred because of the Japanese presence in China.

You ask, "Don’t you know the Communist Chinese was engaging in Opium plantation and trading in the 1930s and 1940s?" True. Some Nationalist warlords did the same, though Chiang himself was opposed.

However, it was consistent Japanese Government policy from the 1890s to encourage drug use in occupied areas of China to help hinder the population's ability to resist.

I didn't mention Iris Chang's book at all. The "Rape of Nanking" was known about over half a century before it was published. What is your particular objection to it?

Lewis Smyth says that 90% of the civilian deaths in Nanking occurred after the Japanese occupation. He states repeatedly that he believes his figures are necessarily an underestimate because by the time he did his survey the Chinese population was probably too cowed by the Japanese occupation to be truly forthcoming.

You post, "Changsha in Nov 1938. That incident alone killed the number of Chinese civilians almost equivalent to those killed by Japanese in Nanking." So, not quite as bad as the Japanese in Nanking, then?

Would the Yellow River dykes have been opened if the Japanese Army hadn't been in the country? That said, it certainly proved to be a spectacularly damaging and unnecessary decision.

You ask, "Oh you think Unit 731 conducted biological warfare experiments on Chinese civilians was bad?" Yup. Don't you?

"Organ harvesting" seems to have begun half a century or more after WWII. What is its relevance to China in WWII?

Cheers,

Sid.

Why the Japanese presence in China mattered?
Are you going to tell me just because the US forces were present in Iraq or Afghanistan, any civilians killed by ISIS/Taliban is due to the US presence in their countries and thus should be justified / counted as American atrocity?

Who told you it’s Japanese Government policy to encourage drug use to hinder the resist? What book did you read to have that conclusion? Don’t you know the Japanese paid a premium salary in the 1930s to attract laborers from Northern China to Manchuria. Millions of Chinese migrated to Manchuria under that incentive. If the Japanese policy is to weaken the local people, why they wanted to pay a premium salary to encourage more Chinese to their occupied territory?
Oh you don’t know that chapter of the history do you?

In China, it’s always been called Nanking Massacre. Only in the English world it’s sometime been referred to Rape of Nanking and I imaged that’s largely because of Iris Chang’s book.

Yes Lewis Smythe did believe his figures were underestimated. Unfortunately for all the ChiCom fan boys his belief is wrong.
Professor Zhang, Lianhong from Nanjing Normal University organized a full scale carpet survey in Jiangning (Kiangning) in 2006 and found the death toll was 7,361 about 20% less than Smythe’s result in the same area. (In Chinese)
http://jczs.news.sina.com.cn/2006-09-03/1804394980.html
And again, you don’t know that chapter of the history do you?

So you do agree the Chinese governments (Both National and Communist) treated her citizens less humane than the Japaneses? Right? Isn’t that my point?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi manfredzhang,

You ask "Why the Japanese presence in China mattered?" Apart from anything else, it matters because everything we are discussing here related to WWII is contingent on the Japanese Army having invaded China.

You ask, "Are you going to tell me just because the US forces were present in Iraq or Afghanistan, any civilians killed by ISIS/Taliban is due to the US presence in their countries and thus should be justified / counted as American atrocity?" So you are drawing a parallel between Japanese activities in China with US activities in Iraq? Tell us more.....

There is an interesting article giving what appears to be a worst case against the Japanese opium policy in China. Not a citable source, but a beginners guide to the accusations: https://historyofyesterday.com/how-impe ... 3f31fc3979

You ask, "Don’t you know the Japanese paid a premium salary in the 1930s to attract laborers from Northern China to Manchuria. Millions of Chinese migrated to Manchuria under that incentive. If the Japanese policy is to weaken the local people, why they wanted to pay a premium salary to encourage more Chinese to their occupied territory?" To use them as cheap labour for themselves, like any other colonial power.

You post, "In China, it’s always been called Nanking Massacre. Only in the English world it’s sometime been referred to Rape of Nanking and I imaged that’s largely because of Iris Chang’s book." So? Call it whatever you want. Neither make it a remotely "decent" Japanese activity. (The earliest reference I found on the internet to the "Rape of Nanking" was in the USA in 1943.)

You post, "Yes Lewis Smythe did believe his figures were underestimated." Common ground!

You post, "Unfortunately for all the ChiCom fan boys his belief is wrong." I think you may be on the wrong site for "ChiCom fan boys". AHF is home to a small number of refugee Waffen-SS groupies, certainly, but I have yet to encounter any ChiCom fans here.

You post, "Professor Zhang, Lianhong from Nanjing Normal University organized a full scale carpet survey in Jiangning (Kiangning) in 2006 and found the death toll was 7,361 about 20% less than Smythe’s result in the same area." So, some 70 years after the event? I bet there was a lot more modelling than survey! Tell us more. (That would presumably be the ChiCom Nanjing Normal University run by the Communist Chinese state?)

You post, "So you do agree the Chinese governments (Both National and Communist) treated her citizens less humane than the Japaneses?" Where did I say that? Did they conduct biological warfare experiments on them?

You posted, ".....the most decent force in the Sino-Japanese conflicts is indeed the Japanese." I merely pointed out that if you really think that "the most decent force" is one that conducted the rapes and massacres in Nanjing/Nanking, tested biological weapons on Chinese civilians and for 40 years encouraged the addiction to opium of occupied China, then you are setting the bar remarkably low for decency.

Cheetrs,

Sid.

[manfredzhang]

Hi manfredzhang,

You ask "Why the Japanese presence in China mattered?" Apart from anything else, it matters because everything we are discussing here related to WWII is contingent on the Japanese Army having invaded China.

You ask, "Are you going to tell me just because the US forces were present in Iraq or Afghanistan, any civilians killed by ISIS/Taliban is due to the US presence in their countries and thus should be justified / counted as American atrocity?" So you are drawing a parallel between Japanese activities in China with US activities in Iraq? Tell us more.....

There is an interesting article giving what appears to be a worst case against the Japanese opium policy in China. Not a citable source, but a beginners guide to the accusations: https://historyofyesterday.com/how-impe ... 3f31fc3979

You ask, "Don’t you know the Japanese paid a premium salary in the 1930s to attract laborers from Northern China to Manchuria. Millions of Chinese migrated to Manchuria under that incentive. If the Japanese policy is to weaken the local people, why they wanted to pay a premium salary to encourage more Chinese to their occupied territory?" To use them as cheap labour for themselves, like any other colonial power.

You post, "In China, it’s always been called Nanking Massacre. Only in the English world it’s sometime been referred to Rape of Nanking and I imaged that’s largely because of Iris Chang’s book." So? Call it whatever you want. Neither make it a remotely "decent" Japanese activity. (The earliest reference I found on the internet to the "Rape of Nanking" was in the USA in 1943.)

You post, "Yes Lewis Smythe did believe his figures were underestimated." Common ground!

You post, "Unfortunately for all the ChiCom fan boys his belief is wrong." I think you may be on the wrong site for "ChiCom fan boys". AHF is home to a small number of refugee Waffen-SS groupies, certainly, but I have yet to encounter any ChiCom fans here.

You post, "Professor Zhang, Lianhong from Nanjing Normal University organized a full scale carpet survey in Jiangning (Kiangning) in 2006 and found the death toll was 7,361 about 20% less than Smythe’s result in the same area." So, some 70 years after the event? I bet there was a lot more modelling than survey! Tell us more. (That would presumably be the ChiCom Nanjing Normal University run by the Communist Chinese state?)

You post, "So you do agree the Chinese governments (Both National and Communist) treated her citizens less humane than the Japaneses?" Where did I say that? Did they conduct biological warfare experiments on them?

You posted, ".....the most decent force in the Sino-Japanese conflicts is indeed the Japanese." I merely pointed out that if you really think that "the most decent force" is one that conducted the rapes and massacres in Nanjing/Nanking, tested biological weapons on Chinese civilians and for 40 years encouraged the addiction to opium of occupied China, then you are setting the bar remarkably low for decency.

Cheetrs,

Sid.

What do you mean WWII Japanese Army invaded China?
WWII started in 1939. When did the so called Japanese invasion take place?

I don’t see much difference of Japanese presence in China vs. US presence in the Philippines at about the same time. Not so much difference than the US presence in Iraq and Afghanistan either in the 2000s.

Not a citable source? Then why the heck you posted here? Wasting time?
The point is not to tell you to use them as cheap labor like any other colonial power. The point is you can not drug them and at the same time use them as cheap labor. These are two conflicted goals. You can adopt either one, but NOT both. It probably fits a seven-year old’s mind but not senior Japanese policy makers’ mind.

I have already said, compared to whatever the Chinese Nationalists and Communists did to their own citizens, Nanking incident is almost nothing.

No ChiCom fan boys?
This thread alone has proved their existence.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=40634

What do you want to know more about Zhang, Lianhong’s work?
http://news.sina.com.cn/s/2006-09-23/13 ... 366s.shtml
“由于农村人口流动性很低，这个调查数字和真实死亡数据之间相差不会太大”。
Zhang said Due to the low mobility of the rural population, the difference between this survey result and the actual death toll is negligible.
This is no modeling but actual survey. The group went to Jiangning and knocked doors one family after another.
At 2006, there were still sizable witnesses of Nanking incident. Family members of survivors will also share stories told by their parents or grand parents.
Yes, it was run by the ChiCom Nanjing Normal University supported by the Communist Chinese state.
The communists also wanted some solid evidence to support their 300K victim claim. But the evidence they found was against their claim and served as a support to Lewis Smythe’s survey. Isn’t that Ironic?

Well you acknowledged the National government killed way more Chinese civilians in Yellow river flooding than Nanking incident. And you also acknowledged the ChiCom regime conducting live organ harvest after some 7-8 decades of unit 731. That’s solid proof of Japanese decency.

[gebhk]

Well you acknowledged the National government killed way more Chinese civilians in Yellow river flooding than Nanking incident. And you also acknowledged the ChiCom regime conducting live organ harvest after some 7-8 decades of unit 731. That’s solid proof of Japanese decency.

I was going to write something pithy and ironic but, on reflection, can think of nothing that approaches the shear sublime absurdity of this statement.

[manfredzhang]

Well you acknowledged the National government killed way more Chinese civilians in Yellow river flooding than Nanking incident. And you also acknowledged the ChiCom regime conducting live organ harvest after some 7-8 decades of unit 731. That’s solid proof of Japanese decency.

I was going to write something pithy and ironic but, on reflection, can think of nothing that approaches the shear sublime absurdity of this statement.

We are comparing which party is more humane/inhumane in terms of treating Chinese civilians. So what's the problem?

[gebhk]

So presumably in your view the fact that Andrei Chikatilo killed over 50 people is solid proof that Fred West was a decent human being (he killed 12 or 13). If you don't see the absurdity of that, then I give up.

[manfredzhang]

So presumably in your view the fact that Andrei Chikatilo killed over 50 people is solid proof that Fred West was a decent human being (he killed 12 or 13). If you don't see the absurdity of that, then I give up.

Well, in the very beginning, #13, I made very clear the decency is written within historic context.

My exact wording is “the most decent force in the Sino-Japanese conflicts is indeed the Japanese.”

If you want to use Andrei Chikatilo (ChiCom/Chinese Nationalist) and Fred West (Japanese) as an example, it’s like Andrei Chikatilo claimed Fred West had killed 120 (inflated 10 times) and he himself killed 5 (deflated 10 times). So in his world (from where most of the Chinese fan boys coming from), he is certainly the decent one than Fred West.

That’s all about this topic Was the death toll in China inflated.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi manfredzhang,

You ask, "What do you mean WWII Japanese Army invaded China?" Well, forgive me if I am wrong, but I rather thought all the incidents we are discussing took place on Chinese soil and involved Chinese victims as a result, directly or indirectly, of the presence of the Japanese Army. If I am not mistaken, the Chinese did not invite the Japanese Army into any of the places mentioned.

You state, "WWII started in 1939." That's a rather Eurocentric view, don't you think?

Cheers,

Sid.

[manfredzhang]

Hi manfredzhang,


You state, "WWII started in 1939." That's a rather Eurocentric view, don't you think?

Cheers,

Sid.

That's not what I think. That's what Wikipedia claimed most frequently cited.

Even the Chinese had different views on when the Anti-Japanese war ever started...

And I don't consider Sino-Japanese conflicts is at World War level...

[manfredzhang]

Hi manfredzhang,

the Chinese did not invite the Japanese Army into any of the places mentioned.



Sid.

Well they actually did...

To check the Russians aggression, the Chinese actually welcomed Japanese to come to Manchuria. And thus although officially neutral, China supported Japan in the Russo Japanese war which was largely fought on the Chinese soil.

And please be very clear, when you say Chinese, which Chinese? The main body Han Chinese or the minority Man Chinese? These are two different ethnic groups.

[michael mills]

Sid, I think you are stubbornly refusing to address the essential point being made by Manfredzhang, namely that the overwhelming majority of the atrocities committed against the Chinese population in the 20th Century were perpetrated by various Chinese ruling groups in their conflicts with each other, and not by Japanese interventionists.

Instead, you select out a small number of atrocities that were committed by Japanese interventionists, and from them draw the illogical conclusion that without the Japanese intervention in support of the anti-Communist Chinese factions atrocities of that nature would not have occurred. That strikes me as somewhat disingenuous.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Michael Mills,

I don't think you have correctly identified "the essential point", which refers to China over 1937-45.

Nobody, least of all me, is going to suggest that the various Chinese civil wars and mismanagement both before and after that period weren't at least as costly in Chinese lives as those consequent upon the Japanese invasion of those years. But that is not what this thread is about and it is not the point Manfredzhang initially made.

He posted, "..........the most decent force in the Sino-Japanese conflicts is indeed the Japanese." He didn't say something along the lines of "least worst", he said "most decent". I don't have to rehearse for you what the Japanese actually did while in China for it to be obvious that the Japanese weren't "decent" at all.

Cheers,

Sid

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi manfredzhang,

The Chinese welcoming the Japanese checking Russian aggression is not at all the same thing as them inviting the Japanese in.

You post, "I don't consider Sino-Japanese conflicts is at World War level". And the German attack on Poland was? There were two largely separate, continental-scale wars going on before December 1941. The latest round of the one in Asia started in 1937 (or, according to some, 1931) and the other in Europe began in 1939. What joined them in a World War were the consequences of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour. If you choose to take the Eurocentric view, the world war started in 1939. If you choose to take a more global view, it began in 1937.

Cheers,

Sid.