Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

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ljadw
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by ljadw » 11 Apr 2021 16:20

Who would do the conversion training ?The training schools could not even train sufficient German pilots .
I agree about the attrition :
The pilot training had to be at the same level of the aircraft production,and the aircraft production had to be bigger than the losses
Example :
Losses estimated at 100 aircraft, thus production had to be at least 100 aircraft and ''production '' of pilots had to be also 100 .The aircraft production was 11776 in 1941 ,but the losses in the second half of 1941 were 4650,without the Mediterranean ,and without the non combat losses ,of which Murray writes in Strategy for defeat that they were 44,5 % of the total losses in the first half of 1941 .
If it would be at the same level for the second half of 1941,than the losses in that period would be more than 6000.And, this would explain why the aircraft strength of the LW ,which was 5801 in April 1941 was only 5819 in April 1942(an ''increase '' with 18 !) (DRZW Tome 5/1 P 963 ).
The only way for the LW to have more aircraft ( and not all were serviceable ),pilots/crew/technicians, was a period of peace,or war at a very low level , but ,than the question would arise why Germany would need a strong LW in a period of savings .And if Germany could afford this .
OTOH, it was probable that this period of savings would coincide with new demands on the LW ,while there would be no money for new,very expensive aircraft ,and that one should be forced to fall back on the increasing use of the Flak .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Apr 2021 21:44

Hi ljadw,

The Romanians had their own flying schools and had had several dozen Bf109 pilots since 1940. Conversion training is quick compared with training a pilot from scratch.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by ljadw » 12 Apr 2021 12:13

What is quick ? A month, a week ? And who would replace the experienced pilots who were following a conversion training ?

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Yuri
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by Yuri » 12 Apr 2021 14:04

Romanian aircraft (types of aircraft) in the area of Stalingrad in October 1942.
42-10-03 Lfl4 3725_42 An1(rumFligKorp_Stalingrad).jpg
The Romanian Luftwaffe (aviation and anti-aircraft artillery) was equipped with equipment from different European countries (France, Sweden, Switzerland, Italy and of course Germany).
Until September 1943, direct deliveries were made from Italy to Romania.
From other European countries via Germany. From September 1943, from Italy, also via Germany.

Plans for the delivery of aircraft and anti-aircraft guns from Germany to Romania in 1944/45 will be announced a little later.
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TheMarcksPlan
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 15 Apr 2021 19:51

counter wrote: if the USSR is defeated, Germany would support Japan because it would be extremely necessary for the germans to get the "rest" of the Eurasian russian territory locked up and surrounded by a "cordon sanitaire" in order to avoid a russian reenactment. The limit of the nazi conquest could be either A-A line (Volga river) or the Urals, but anyway the remaining russian state must allow the nazis to send direct aid to Japan to avoid total japanese defeat (remember how soviets sent the Red Army from central Europe to Manchuria in 1945).
Exactly. Somehow people imagine that Hitler didn't recognize the importance of Japan to Germany, despite the centrality of Japan fighting USA in Hitler's imagination.

Furthermore, Kwantung Army was strong in '42 and, once freed, the RoC is cooked. Especially considering they'd get tanks (Pz 1/2 and early 3's) from Germany and probably MG's from Germany. Even a Pz MK1 would be terrifying to Chinese troops lacking heavy weapons.
KDF33 wrote:
31 Mar 2021 20:27
ljadw wrote:
31 Mar 2021 19:55
Elimination of the USSR would give Germany not more resources (if it needed them )and would not give Germany the ability to concentrate on fighting the western allies
Utter nonsense.
Yeah. Engaging it needlessly runs up page counts, making discussion inaccessible to others.
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Apr 2021 20:04

Hi ljadw,

You ask, "What is quick ? A month, a week ?" It doesn't much matter which. All are short compared with training a pilot from scratch.

You ask, "And who would replace the experienced pilots who were following a conversion training ?" That is a secondary problem to be resolved by flying training programmes. The first thing is to get as many of the existing pilots into competitive aircraft as possible before they are shot out of the sky in obsolescent ones.

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by ljadw » 16 Apr 2021 07:30

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
15 Apr 2021 19:51
counter wrote: if the USSR is defeated, Germany would support Japan because it would be extremely necessary for the germans to get the "rest" of the Eurasian russian territory locked up and surrounded by a "cordon sanitaire" in order to avoid a russian reenactment. The limit of the nazi conquest could be either A-A line (Volga river) or the Urals, but anyway the remaining russian state must allow the nazis to send direct aid to Japan to avoid total japanese defeat (remember how soviets sent the Red Army from central Europe to Manchuria in 1945).
Exactly. Somehow people imagine that Hitler didn't recognize the importance of Japan to Germany, despite the centrality of Japan fighting USA in Hitler's imagination.

Furthermore, Kwantung Army was strong in '42 and, once freed, the RoC is cooked. Especially considering they'd get tanks (Pz 1/2 and early 3's) from Germany and probably MG's from Germany. Even a Pz MK1 would be terrifying to Chinese troops lacking heavy weapons.
KDF33 wrote:
31 Mar 2021 20:27
ljadw wrote:
31 Mar 2021 19:55
Elimination of the USSR would give Germany not more resources (if it needed them )and would not give Germany the ability to concentrate on fighting the western allies
Utter nonsense.
Yeah. Engaging it needlessly runs up page counts, making discussion inaccessible to others.
Japan did not get German weapons : it was the RoC that got them til September 1939 .
If the USSR was eliminated in 1941, 60 of the 150 divisions of the Ostheer would remain in the East and 50 would be disbanded.If Britain capitulated ,the other 40 divisions would be need as occupation army .And Germany would not have a strategic reserve to use against a US landing .
And most important FACT : after the elimination of the USSR,Germany would be forced to disband its army of 200 divisions
and to bring back its mobilized manpower of 7,2 million to something as 1,2 million .
With this force, Germany could never dominate /occupy Europe from the Pyrenees to the Urals.
All this wishful-thinking about a German victory is only a house of cards .

ljadw
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by ljadw » 16 Apr 2021 07:45

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Apr 2021 20:04
Hi ljadw,

You ask, "What is quick ? A month, a week ?" It doesn't much matter which. All are short compared with training a pilot from scratch.

You ask, "And who would replace the experienced pilots who were following a conversion training ?" That is a secondary problem to be resolved by flying training programmes. The first thing is to get as many of the existing pilots into competitive aircraft as possible before they are shot out of the sky in obsolescent ones.

Sid.
You give quality an importance it did not have .The same for fighters .
Only a small part of aircraft losses were the result of fighter to fighter fighting .
The following is from 12 oclock high : Soviet aircraft losses ,with as source Krivosheev Table 95
Total Soviet aircraft losses was 106400
Combat aircraft : 88300 of which only 45200 combat losses
Non Combat aircraft :18100 of which 17200 non combat losses .
Total combat losses were only 46100, and only a part of them were caused by aerial combat.
Competitive aircraft (all aircraft are competitive ) do not mean competitive pilots ( and the opposite ) : an experienced pilot in a new aircraft will not have automatically more victories than in an old aircraft, besides war in the air is not a question of aces who are competing with each other to shoot more enemy fighters .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Apr 2021 08:25

Hi ljadw,

You post, "All aircraft are competitive".

So a pilot in an F-35 is on an an equal footing with one in a Sopwith Camel?

If so, one wonders why anyone has bothered to evolve new fighters since the Fokker Eindecker!

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by ljadw » 16 Apr 2021 13:15

Sid Guttridge wrote:
16 Apr 2021 08:25
Hi ljadw,

You post, "All aircraft are competitive".

So a pilot in an F-35 is on an an equal footing with one in a Sopwith Camel?



Cheers,

Sid.
Wrong comparison .
All aircraft are competitive does mean that the competitiveness of aircraft depend on their missions, on the competitiveness of the hostile aircraft and on the period when they were used .
Would a pilot in an F-35 have done better in 1940 over London than a pilot in a Spitfire or a Messerschmidt ?
How long would it take an F-35 to be ready? How many hours could he fly ? An hour ? What would be his operational speed ?( his maximum speed is almost 2000 km ) .
How would a fighter flying at 1000 km per hour,protect a Geschwader bombers flying at 250 km per hour ?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Apr 2021 16:03

Hi ljadw,

Why would an F-35 need to "protect a Geschwader bombers flying at 250 km per hour"? It is a multi-role combat aircraft that could do its own ground strikes. I doubt an opposing air force equipped with Spitfires, Bf109s and 250 km per hour bombers would even get off its airfields to contend the skies over London in the face of F-35 strikes. If it did, it would probably have little enough to come back to!

I ask again , "So a pilot in an F-35 is on an an equal footing with one in a Sopwith Camel?"

Cheers,

Sid

ljadw
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by ljadw » 16 Apr 2021 16:36

There were no multi-role combat aircraft in 1940 : A German F-35 would in 1940 only do what the Me were ordered to do : to protect the bombers, and,what they mostly failed to do .
And the F 35 would also fail ,as an F 35 would not be operational when he would fly at the speed of the bombers .
Combat aircraft of 2021 would be useless in 1940, as Panther tanks would be useless at Waterloo.
They would not exist,and if they existed, they could not function,as the pilots of WWI could not handle them, the technicians could not support them , the logistic apparatus of WWI could not transport them and could not supply them .Fuel for jets did not exist in WWI .
In WWI you would be safer in a Sopwith Camel than in an F 35.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Apr 2021 19:32

Hi ljadw,

This is a deeply unproductive, not to say silly, discussion, and way off topic. We should end it now.

Sid.

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Aida1
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by Aida1 » 05 May 2021 18:26

ljadw wrote:
16 Apr 2021 16:36
There were no multi-role combat aircraft in 1940 : A German F-35 would in 1940 only do what the Me were ordered to do : to protect the bombers, and,what they mostly failed to do .
And the F 35 would also fail ,as an F 35 would not be operational when he would fly at the speed of the bombers .
Combat aircraft of 2021 would be useless in 1940, as Panther tanks would be useless at Waterloo.
They would not exist,and if they existed, they could not function,as the pilots of WWI could not handle them, the technicians could not support them , the logistic apparatus of WWI could not transport them and could not supply them .Fuel for jets did not exist in WWI .
In WWI you would be safer in a Sopwith Camel than in an F 35.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

ljadw
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Re: Vulnerability of Soviet population, agriculture, and industry to German occupation

Post by ljadw » 05 May 2021 20:16

You refuse to accept the reality which is that military equipment of today could not function 80 ago and that military equipment of 80 years ago can not function today .
Panther tanks would not only be useless at Waterloo but also in Desert Storm .
During WWII most German, US,Soviet aircraft losses happened in non combat/training missions .
In WWII the US air force lost 22,948 aircraft in combat,21,583 in accidents in the US and 20,633 in accidents overseas .
It would now be worse : pilots of WWII could not fly an F 35, and to day Pilots could not fly a Spitfire .
An F 35 would crash almost immediately in WWI .
We do not live like our ancestors ,our military could not fight as our ancestors .
And our ancestors could not live like us ,their soldiers could not fight as our soldiers .

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