469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

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Sid Guttridge
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469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Apr 2021 12:42

Apparently in December 1943 469 Germans were serving in the Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade:

http://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/dsmo/vi ... 1b63bd97ba

Sid

daveshoup2MD
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by daveshoup2MD » 12 Apr 2021 03:37

Sid Guttridge wrote:
11 Apr 2021 12:42
Apparently in December 1943 469 Germans were serving in the Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade:

http://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/dsmo/vi ... 1b63bd97ba

Sid
Interesting; more than 10 percent of the total manpower. From the English translation, it appears a number of these Czech loyalists/refugees/emigres/exiles were Jewish, but not all - presumably they had all left Central Europe in 1938-39.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Apr 2021 09:06

Hi daveshoup2MD,

The abbreviated English article says that in 1940 some Germans were amongst the Jews who enlisted in France with Czechoslovak exile forces. That is the only mention of Jews. There is no mention in this article about Sudeten Germans of Jews amongst them in the UK or the Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade.

Given the problems they apparently had enlisting, it looks as though it was possible to have raised rather more Sudeten Germans had conditions been more welcoming earlier.

Cheers,

Sid.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by daveshoup2MD » 13 Apr 2021 06:48

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Apr 2021 09:06
Hi daveshoup2MD,

The abbreviated English article says that in 1940 some Germans were amongst the Jews who enlisted in France with Czechoslovak exile forces. That is the only mention of Jews. There is no mention in this article about Sudeten Germans of Jews amongst them in the UK or the Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade.

Given the problems they apparently had enlisting, it looks as though it was possible to have raised rather more Sudeten Germans had conditions been more welcoming earlier.

Cheers,

Sid.
Two-thirds of the way down in Column One of the article, there's a reference to allegations of antisemitism among the Czech officers corps; the context - at least in the English translation - makes it clear those making the allegations were some of the same Sudeten German-speakers, which - considering they must have been refugees to be in the UK - would suggest these Sudeten German-speakers were, in fact, Jewish.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Apr 2021 08:11

Hi daveshoup2MD,

It doesn't say the Germans were talking about their own treatment.

We need a translation of the much bigger Czech article. That will presumably have more detail.

Cheers,

Sid.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by daveshoup2MD » 18 Apr 2021 04:37

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Apr 2021 08:11
Hi daveshoup2MD,

It doesn't say the Germans were talking about their own treatment.

We need a translation of the much bigger Czech article. That will presumably have more detail.

Cheers,

Sid.
Seems like a pretty straightforward inference.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Apr 2021 11:59

Hi daveshoup,

An inference has to be based in evidence. In this case there is none. The article is specifically about Germans and the abbreviated English version does not support the idea that they were Jewish.

It is possible that your instincts are right and some were, but it is impossible to draw this inference from the information that we currently have.

As I say, we need a translation of the relevant bits of the Czech article.

Using Google translate it seems that Germans and Jews were counted separately and that both were complaining of discrimination in 1941. However, a definitive answer can only be given by a Czech speaker.

Cheers,

Sid.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by daveshoup2MD » 18 Apr 2021 21:06

Sid Guttridge wrote:
18 Apr 2021 11:59
Hi daveshoup,

An inference has to be based in evidence. In this case there is none. The article is specifically about Germans and the abbreviated English version does not support the idea that they were Jewish.

It is possible that your instincts are right and some were, but it is impossible to draw this inference from the information that we currently have.

As I say, we need a translation of the relevant bits of the Czech article.

Using Google translate it seems that Germans and Jews were counted separately and that both were complaining of discrimination in 1941. However, a definitive answer can only be given by a Czech speaker.

Cheers,

Sid.
All credit to the German-speaking Christian, Moslem, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, atheist, and agnostic Sudentenlanders who fled to the UK and volunteered for the Czech Army in exile who were then disheartened by anti-semitism from their Czech-speaking Czech Christian Army in exile officers. I'm sure there were a lot of them...

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Apr 2021 23:06

Hi daveshoup2MD,

I think you may have dialled up to 11 on your inferenceometer! You might like to check its calibration.

Cheers,

Sid.

Cekekb
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Cekekb » 20 Apr 2021 15:44

Jewish ethnicity and Jewish nationality were considered separate categories with majority of Germans actually being Jewish (while the article gives no number it acknowledges that here was a significant overlap between those two categories).

Much better work on "Germans" serving in CS army in the Great Britain is available here:
http://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/dsmo/vi ... 1b63bd97ba

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Apr 2021 17:31

Hi cekekb,

Thanks.

Your link gives:

20/8/40 59 Germans 109 Jews
1/1/41 179 Germans ? Jews
1/1/42 301 Germans ? Jews
13/7/42 346 Germans 41 Jews
31/12/42 358 Germans 43 Jews
31/12/43 518 Germans 84 Jews

However, this is clearly not the whole story.

What does the sub-chapter on "German" officers say?

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Apr 2021 17:34

Hi cekekb,

Thanks.

Your link gives:

20/8/40 59 Germans 109 Jews
1/1/41 179 Germans ? Jews
1/1/42 301 Germans ? Jews
13/7/42 346 Germans 41 Jews
31/12/42 358 Germans 43 Jews
31/12/43 518 Germans 84 Jews

However, this is clearly not the whole story.

What does the sub-chapter on "German" officers say?

Early on it looks as though some Germans may have been classifying themselves as Jews. Later on it looks as though the reverse may have been the case.

Cheers,

Sid.

Cekekb
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Cekekb » 20 Apr 2021 18:22

In biographic sketches of 7 officers ( out of 16) it is clearly stated that they were Jewish. Other 2 could be possibly Jewish due to their somewhat steretoypical surnames.,,

In text there are some numbers on Jews by religion
1/1/41 - 605
1/1/42 - 641
13/7/42 - 742
Also quote from diary of replacement depot: " ...64 recruits mustered in, mostly of German nationality and Jewish faith"

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Apr 2021 20:47

Hi Cekekb,

Thanks.

However, it seems a bit strange that the number of men of Jewish faith appears to exceed the total number of Germans + Jews. Were there men considered to be of Czech, Slovak or Ruthene nationality of Jewish faith?

Thanks,

Sid.

Cekekb
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Re: 469 Sudeten Germans were serving in the Allied Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade in December 1943

Post by Cekekb » 21 Apr 2021 06:44

Sid Guttridge wrote:
20 Apr 2021 20:47
Hi Cekekb,

Thanks.

However, it seems a bit strange that the number of men of Jewish faith appears to exceed the total number of Germans + Jews. Were there men considered to be of Czech, Slovak or Ruthene nationality of Jewish faith?

Thanks,

Sid.
That would be correct conlusion. While the majority of Germans would of Jewish faith, not all of men of Jewish faith would be German.

Note that at least in Bohemian part of the country Jews tended to be quite assimiliated, so they would declare their nationality rather as Czech or German than Jewish.

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