Did Martin Bormann survive the war?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi..

Different "eyewitnesses" said radically different things about Bormann's "death". All of them can't be right certainly? He couldn't have died violently in a tank battle on Weidendammer bridge AND lie "peacefully" without a mark on him near Lehrter Bahnhof surely? Differences in a 27 yr dead skeleton and a 15 yr old one?
His family didnt accept his remains either...

Cheers
Sandeep

[ManfredV]

You must read exactly: some eyewitnesses saw the tank exploding and they didn't see Bormann afterwards. Therefore they believed he was dead.
Some believed ( not saw!) he was in the tank, other saw him nearby.
Axmann and his adjutant said they saw his and Stumpfegger's bodies some hours later. The man who buried him (who didn't recognized Bormann at that time) said he buried two man there.
1972/73 forensic analysis identified Bormann's bones and said he died of poisson. 1998 a DNA analysis confirmed Bormann's identity. His familiy accepted he was dead.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

You must read exactly: some eyewitnesses saw the tank exploding and they didn't see Bormann afterwards. Therefore they believed he was dead.
Some believed ( not saw!) he was in the tank, other saw him nearby.
Axmann and his adjutant said they saw his and Stumpfegger's bodies some hours later. The man who buried him (who didn't recognized Bormann at that time) said he buried two man there.
1972/73 forensic analysis identified Bormann's bones and said he died of poisson. 1998 a DNA analysis confirmed Bormann's identity. His familiy accepted he was dead.

Pl help me a bit here with the following:

# Who and where was Axmann's "adjutant" in this entire episode? I never heard about such a person in this context.

# Where is the link / reference which says Bormann's bones revealed he died of poison?

Cheers
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

You must read exactly: some eyewitnesses saw the tank exploding and they didn't see Bormann afterwards. Therefore they believed he was dead.
Some believed ( not saw!) he was in the tank, other saw him nearby.
Axmann and his adjutant said they saw his and Stumpfegger's bodies some hours later. The man who buried him (who didn't recognized Bormann at that time) said he buried two man there.
1972/73 forensic analysis identified Bormann's bones and said he died of poisson. 1998 a DNA analysis confirmed Bormann's identity. His familiy accepted he was dead.

Another point I missed. Kempke claimed tht he "saw" Bormann blown up in the Tank battle. Baur said Bormann was "inside" the tank. I will get back with more "eyewitness" stuff about tht episode on Weidendammer Brucke...

Cheers
Sandeep

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

We seem to be left with two agreed facts:

1) Bormann is long dead.

2) His body was found decades after 1945 in Berlin on an escape route witnesses say he was using.

This tells us that, unless some new, hard evidence indicates otherwise, he died trying to escape from Berlin in 1945.

As things stand, such alternative hard evidence does not exist.

I will believe anything so long as reasonable evidence exists to support it, but in this case it does not. As it stands, all that exists is the usual unsubstantiated, contrived conspiracy-theorist, doubt-throwing on the above, generally agreed, version and a completely unsubstantiated and highly convoluted alternative tale of escape to South America, death in exile and reburial in Berlin decades later.

There is no real controversy here. The hard evidence indicates that Bormann died trying to escape from Berlin in 1945.

Cheers,

Sid.

[ManfredV]

I agree.

[hsa601]

Well said Sid - Amen

[Br. James]

AMEN, Sid! With thanks.

Br. James

[ajcol]

Believe more in the information on this site than anything posted on this thread.


https://www.hitlerpages.com/bormann.html

I generally agree with your statement Annelie, however the author of 'hitlerpages' states - "At the end of the Friedrichstrasse, just past the S-Bahnstation, is the Weidendammer Brücke across the Spree. Next to the bridge must have been an iron walking bridge at that time."
This appears to be an incorrect assumption as this aerial photo (US Archives 1945) via GoogleEarth timeline shows a footbridge on the west side of the Friedrichstrasse S-Bahnstation and not beside the Weidendammer Brücke. I also recall reading 'somewhere' (searched for it but without success!) that the 1st group led by Mohnke crossed the Spree on an iron footbridge about 300m downstream from the Weidendammer Brücke, which would be about right for the footbridge shown in this photograph.

Iron Footbridge.JPG

[Simon Gunson]

Martin Bormann’s skull was dug up encrusted with red volcanic soil next to the Lehrter Railroad station in West Berlin's on Invaliden Strasse, Ulap fairgrounds in 1972, later DNA from his teeth proved that it wasbindeed Bormann’s skull. Problem was his teeth were different from their last seen condition in February 1945. The skull’s left first and right third molars and right central incisor were all missing in 1972 , but present in 1945. There was also bridge work performed with postwar techniques.

Martin Bormann's dentist Dr Hugo Blaschke examined Bormann in February 1945. Tooth sockets or Avioli were grown over by bone growth , a process which takes 6 months. For that to be possible Bormann still had to be alive in November 1945.

[Mark Costa]

Martin Bormann’s skull was dug up encrusted with red volcanic soil next to the Lehrter Railroad station in West Berlin's on Invaliden Strasse, Ulap fairgrounds in 1972, later DNA from his teeth proved that it wasbindeed Bormann’s skull. Problem was his teeth were different from their last seen condition in February 1945. The skull’s left first and right third molars and right central incisor were all missing in 1972 , but present in 1945. There was also bridge work performed with postwar techniques.

Martin Bormann's dentist Dr Hugo Blaschke examined Bormann in February 1945. Tooth sockets or Avioli were grown over by bone growth , a process which takes 6 months. For that to be possible Bormann still had to be alive in November 1945.

Sorry but none of which you state is correct. The entire forensic examinations are available and the denistry issues you list are not true. And the body was definately confirmed to be of a 45 year old man. Bormann was born in 1900. Hence he was 45 years old. So unless he found the fountain of youth in South America, he died in 1945 in Berlin. Also no one has ever been able to explain how they managed to keep Dr Stumpfegger's body on ice for years to be re-buried right next to Bormann's. His body was also found to be of the correct age in 1945. These conspiracy stories are just that stories that do not follow any logic. In regards to a question above in another post -- Axmann's aide was Gunther Weltzin who was captured by the Russians and died in captivity -- his interrogations surfaced after the fall of the Soviet union and backs up Axmann's account of finding Bormann and Stumpfegger dead.

Mark Costa

[Simon Gunson]

Incorrect DNA established the skull was that of Martin Bormann and the Avioli (tooth sockets) were grown over, a feat which required Bormann to have lived 6 months beyond the fall of Berlin in 1945. The skull was indeed caked with red volcanic soil. Berlin has light sandy soil.

Unless you can identify a volcano somewhere in the heart of Berlin, Bormann must have survived the war

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Simon,

Paraguay isn't that big on active volcanoes either!

What is the primary source for the "red-volcanic-clay-from-Paraguay" story?

Has anyone actually analysed it in comparison with Paraguayan volcanic soils?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Mark Costa]

Incorrect DNA established the skull was that of Martin Bormann and the Avioli (tooth sockets) were grown over, a feat which required Bormann to have lived 6 months beyond the fall of Berlin in 1945. The skull was indeed caked with red volcanic soil. Berlin has light sandy soil.

Unless you can identify a volcano somewhere in the heart of Berlin, Bormann must have survived the war

The red soil theory was debunked years ago. It just doesn't exist and was made up by an author for one of those conspriracy books. Read Blaschke's actual report and you will see the avioli issue was not an issue. The conspiracy people grabbed on this a evidence that he survived but the report and Blaschke's words destroys that theory. Why would anyone keep Bormann alive for a few months -- they rebury him in Berlin. I still have not seen anyone explain Stumpfegger or the fact that Bormann was only 45 years -- how did his body not age if he actually survived ????!!!!!!!

Mark Costa

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Mark Costa,

Many thanks.

Sid.