At what point did Germany lose WW2?

[Beteigeuze]

I not understand why so much persons was write same nonsense again and again and again.

I do not think this opinion is nonsense but the reality. That's the reason many say it!

Yes, sir!

Thank you!

[Ружичасти Слон]

After Moscow, the Germans could not win. After Stalingrad, they could not draw. After Kursk it was a matter of time before they lost. The only serious possibility for the Germans was Moscow. Because Moscow was important not from a political point of view but mainly from a military one. All the branches of the railway ended in Moscow. The Soviets could not move an army quickly if they lost Moscow.....

I not understand why so much persons was write same nonsense again and again and again.

I do not think this opinion is nonsense but the reality. That's the reason many say it!

When Beteigeuze statement was be reality then Beteigeuze can very easy give historical datas and evidences for to proof All the branches of the railway ended in Moscow.

Many persons was write and was say it. No persons was give historical evidences or datas for to proof it.

[LineDoggie]

Hitler did not need to build new ships to landing on the British Isles.
He would use the fleet he already had, in addition to the large fleets of Spain, France, Italy, Norway, Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Portugal.
The only thing they should expect to happen is the construction of thousands of U-Boats for the complete exclusion of the islands from the outside world. Luftwaffe was already much better than RAF.

Since Hitler had all those fleet units why didnt he used the immense Danish fleet Son? by the way when did he conquer Portugal or Spain? you do comprehend that dont you?

The moment when Germany had to take the helm was Dunkirk. Or immediately after.
How? Landing in the British Isles. In England and from there to Ireland. And from there to Iceland

Hitler could not get across the channel and you have him invading Iceland, LMMFBO!!!!

The Great Man showed us the Sun. But he was desperately alone. Maybe if he had chosen to have Rudolf Hess by his side and not the British, everything would have been easier. There would be no more problems on the planet and the humanity at this time would be traveling to the stars.

You're a Hitler Lover? please shoot yourself like your hero

[AbollonPolweder]

...
I do not think this opinion is nonsense but the reality. That's the reason many say it!

Thank you!

Do not mention it! You can use these maps to prove your idea:

Hitler know about this almost universal disregard of the defense of the flanks by the German commanders? Given the fact that he intervened in the planning and execution of operations almost to the divisional level, that answer will be affirmative.
In order to find out whether the Third Reich could achieve the goals stated in the Barbarossa plan, you need to look at this map:
http://maps.mapywig.org/m/German_maps/s ... .1942.jpg
or at this one:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/9
These maps show that all railroads lead to Rome , sorry, to Moscow. As General Marcks wrote in his plan:
Among these regions Moscow is the economic, political and spiritual center of the USSR. Its capture destroys the integrity of the Russian empire.
That was the point! Integrity! For its (integrity) destruction, Moscow did not need to be captured; it was enough to surround it, isolate it from Russia or, more precisely, isolate Russia from Moscow. Isolate Russia from the influence of the dictatorship of Stalin, the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, the NKVD, etc.

[Beteigeuze]

Do not mention it! You can use these maps to prove your idea:

Hitler know about this almost universal disregard of the defense of the flanks by the German commanders? Given the fact that he intervened in the planning and execution of operations almost to the divisional level, that answer will be affirmative.
In order to find out whether the Third Reich could achieve the goals stated in the Barbarossa plan, you need to look at this map:
http://maps.mapywig.org/m/German_maps/s ... .1942.jpg
or at this one:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/9
These maps show that all railroads lead to Rome , sorry, to Moscow. As General Marcks wrote in his plan:
Among these regions Moscow is the economic, political and spiritual center of the USSR. Its capture destroys the integrity of the Russian empire.
That was the point! Integrity! For its (integrity) destruction, Moscow did not need to be captured; it was enough to surround it, isolate it from Russia or, more precisely, isolate Russia from Moscow. Isolate Russia from the influence of the dictatorship of Stalin, the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, the NKVD, etc.

When Beteigeuze statement was be reality then Beteigeuze can very easy give historical datas and evidences for to proof All the branches of the railway ended in Moscow.
Many persons was write and was say it. No persons was give historical evidences or datas for to proof it.

I have no objection. I read it on the net and i believed without checking it out first.

[Beteigeuze]

Since Hitler had all those fleet units why didnt he used the immense Danish fleet Son? by the way when did he conquer Portugal or Spain? you do comprehend that dont you?

If he could't use Danish, he could use Norwegian or Spanish or Italian or French Navy after he ended the attack to the West.
He would easily end up with his Spanish and Portugese friend. After sealing Gibraltar he would turn to North to British Isles and from there to Ireland. To Iceland he would send Norwegians. They would surely go if it was a present.

Hitler could not get across the channel and you have him invading Iceland, LMMFBO!!!!

Hitler did't past a channel because he never wanted it. No western man can imagine Germans and British fighting at the islands and in British cities and so he did. He was in love with British Empire in contrantiction with British that a did't such a problem and they did't hasitate to bring war in Big European cities. He never real wanted a real war with British and Americans. This was impossible. Hitler started the war and had no idea how to archieve peace. He is denial to attack to Britain where fate send him made his effort impossible. With frree Britain be feeded by US the disaster sooner or late would come. Churchill had told him since June 4, 1940 by the Speech We Shall Fight on the Beaches, but he did not believe it. He remained faithful to his love for the British and their Empire until the end. In a paradoxical way he expected peace from the British.

You're a Hitler Lover? please shoot yourself like your hero

If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. Winston Churchil

Father i do not really know about Hitler. But for sure i am NOT Satan lover. If i had to do this i would definitely commit suicide.....


Finally for answer the main question on thread this war was lost since the beggining for Germans.
The key of victory was in Britain and Hitler was waiting for the British give it to him with their own will.
But they prefer to give the victory key to Stalin.


If Adolf Hitler would decided to take the victory key on his own, the answer to the main question reverse.

[ljadw]

Norway, Denmark, Portugal had no large fleets, the Italian fleet could not go to the Channel, Greece was neutral,as was Portugal .France would refuse, besides the French navy was in the Mediterranean .
Germany had no big fleet, no merchant fleet, it could land ,using Rhine barges,only a few thousand men,without tanks, trucks, artillery and ammunition/fuel .The barges would need a day to sail to the British coast, a day to return and a day for repair and supply . Meanwhile the landed forces would be exterminated .
Sealion was doomed to fail .That's why the Germans abandoned very quickly the idea of a landing against an undefeated Britain .
And, we have even not mentioned the weather :a landing and supplying a big army in September was out of the question .
And, finally, FYI : there was nothing wrong with Dresden, Dresden was only a German Coventry,both Dresden and Coventry were military bases ,thus legitimate targets .

[mezsat2]

So you was change mezsat opinion from

One look at the Soviet transportation grid in June 41 shows clearly how an all-out strike and occupation of this hub would paralyze the entire existence of the USSR. Large scale evacuation of heavy industry and equipment to the east (which in view of the eastern front only, doomed the Wehrmacht) would be impossible. Anything like rapid troop deployment and communications with these formations would likewise be impossible.

on new mezsat opinion

Not paralyzed. Severely restricted. The most important factor would not have been the transportation itself, yet again, but the command and control of transportation and communications. Certainly, this is a subjective evaluation and cannot be proven one way or the other. The primary argument I'm making is that Stalin and the Stavka would have found defense of their country most difficult were it to be forced out of Moscow.

Ok. I was understand opinion was only mezsat opinion and mezsat subjective evaluation. But what is connection to real historys ?

For to make subjective evaluation must to have some real history evidences and datas.

Can you to give some datas or evidences for to explain mezsat evaluation ?

Another huge part of this equation, which cannot be underestimated, is the diminishing efficacy of the Luftwaffe
during Typhoon due to poor weather conditions.

Were this operation conducted in Aug.-Sep., much better close air support would have been available. Even
more importantly, as serviceable air fields were overran by the army, the Luftwaffe would have been far
more able to fly in urgent supplies and replacement troops- and carry out the wounded and light equipment
in need of repair. Oct.-Dec. saw atrocious flying conditions most of the time.

[mezsat2]

Of course, the above also applied to the motor transport largely bogging down in the mud, then frozen in ice.

Later, even the locomotives could not run and huge numbers were destroyed by the extreme cold.

[Ружичасти Слон]

Of course, the above also applied to the motor transport largely bogging down in the mud, then frozen in ice.

Later, even the locomotives could not run and huge numbers were destroyed by the extreme cold.

Ok. Mezsat2 not have any historical datas or evidences on nothing. Meszat2 only have much opinions what was subjective evaluations on nothing.

[mezsat2]

My apologies, sir, but this is a message board, not a professional researcher's analytical survey. I have at minimum 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up any assertions I have made. The vast majority of the details of these events are common-knowledge even to the layman. I
need not provide a reference to an astronomical station's observations that the sun and moon still exist.

[ljadw]

So you was change mezsat opinion from

One look at the Soviet transportation grid in June 41 shows clearly how an all-out strike and occupation of this hub would paralyze the entire existence of the USSR. Large scale evacuation of heavy industry and equipment to the east (which in view of the eastern front only, doomed the Wehrmacht) would be impossible. Anything like rapid troop deployment and communications with these formations would likewise be impossible.

on new mezsat opinion

Not paralyzed. Severely restricted. The most important factor would not have been the transportation itself, yet again, but the command and control of transportation and communications. Certainly, this is a subjective evaluation and cannot be proven one way or the other. The primary argument I'm making is that Stalin and the Stavka would have found defense of their country most difficult were it to be forced out of Moscow.

Ok. I was understand opinion was only mezsat opinion and mezsat subjective evaluation. But what is connection to real historys ?

For to make subjective evaluation must to have some real history evidences and datas.

Can you to give some datas or evidences for to explain mezsat evaluation ?

Another huge part of this equation, which cannot be underestimated, is the diminishing efficacy of the Luftwaffe
during Typhoon due to poor weather conditions.

Were this operation conducted in Aug.-Sep., much better close air support would have been available. Even
more importantly, as serviceable air fields were overran by the army, the Luftwaffe would have been far
more able to fly in urgent supplies and replacement troops- and carry out the wounded and light equipment
in need of repair. Oct.-Dec. saw atrocious flying conditions most of the time.

Hm, during the Winter (October is not Winter ) the LW was able to supply the encircled forces of AGN at Demyansk (some 100000 men ) during several weeks,at an average of 300 tons a day .If the LW could do it in February 1942,why would it not be able to do it in November 1941 ?
Other point : it is very unlikely that the additional supplies brought by the LW during Typhoon,would have made Typhoon a success, as the success of Typhoon did not depend on the umber of tanks,men,fuel,ammunition on German side, but on the number of men,weapons,fuel,ammunition on Soviet side .Typhoon could only succeed if
a the Soviets were defeated in the first days
b if that was followed by a general collapse of the Red Army
c if this collapse resulted in the collapse of the Soviet state .
What could by carried by the LW would not influence these three points,especially that there is no proof that there were in Germany sufficient reserves available of men,weapons,trucks,ammunition and fuel and if there were such reserves,that they could be carried in a short time to their destination in the east by the trains .
Western historians are exaggerating the importance of the air forces )on both sides ) during Barbarossa,and think that the LW and the Red Air force had the same influence as the USAAF,RAF,LW outside the east,which is not so .

[Ружичасти Слон]

I have at minimum 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up any assertions I have made.

Very excellent !

One look at the Soviet transportation grid in June 41 shows clearly how an all-out strike and occupation of this hub would paralyze the entire existence of the USSR. Large scale evacuation of heavy industry and equipment to the east (which in view of the eastern front only, doomed the Wehrmacht) would be impossible. Anything like rapid troop deployment and communications with these formations would likewise be impossible.

You can please give historical datas and evidences from your 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up your assertion an all-out strike and occupation of this hub would paralyze the entire existence of the USSR.

You can please give historical datas and evidences from your 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up your assertion Large scale evacuation of heavy industry and equipment to the east (which in view of the eastern front only, doomed the Wehrmacht) would be impossible.

The vast majority of the details of these events are common-knowledge even to the layman. I
need not provide a reference to an astronomical station's observations that the sun and moon still exist.

I was not ask on sun and moon. I was not ask on details of these events are common-knowledge even to the layman.

You was write One look at the Soviet transportation grid in June 41 shows clearly h


Here is map on Soviet transportation grid on june 1941.


Maybe you can to use your 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up your assertion because when i was have many looks on map it seems to me you was be complete wrong.

[Erwinn]

I have at minimum 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up any assertions I have made.

Very excellent !

One look at the Soviet transportation grid in June 41 shows clearly how an all-out strike and occupation of this hub would paralyze the entire existence of the USSR. Large scale evacuation of heavy industry and equipment to the east (which in view of the eastern front only, doomed the Wehrmacht) would be impossible. Anything like rapid troop deployment and communications with these formations would likewise be impossible.

You can please give historical datas and evidences from your 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up your assertion an all-out strike and occupation of this hub would paralyze the entire existence of the USSR.

You can please give historical datas and evidences from your 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up your assertion Large scale evacuation of heavy industry and equipment to the east (which in view of the eastern front only, doomed the Wehrmacht) would be impossible.

The vast majority of the details of these events are common-knowledge even to the layman. I
need not provide a reference to an astronomical station's observations that the sun and moon still exist.

I was not ask on sun and moon. I was not ask on details of these events are common-knowledge even to the layman.

You was write One look at the Soviet transportation grid in June 41 shows clearly h


Here is map on Soviet transportation grid on june 1941.


Maybe you can to use your 15 volumes of hard historical evidence to back up your assertion because when i was have many looks on map it seems to me you was be complete wrong.

I don't know about you, but when I look at that map I saw Moscow as a vital junction in Army Group Center's objective, if captured - I see any reinforcements had to be diverted to other railway gauges hundreds of kms to the south. So he's kinda right in his assumptions.

Capturing Moscow does not mean losing all the railways, but it does mean losing a big hub to move stuff around.

[Max Payload]

Capturing Moscow does not mean losing all the railways, but it does mean losing a big hub to move stuff around.

Losing the Moscow rail hub would have meant that moving resources from the south of Moscow to the north of Moscow would have been equivalent in Western European terms to moving from south of Paris to north of Paris via Berlin.
Doubtless new N-S link lines would have been constructed east of Moscow, but until then Stavka’s operational flexibility on the Moscow axis would have been severely constrained.