12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
CNE503
Member
Posts: 2047
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 08 Apr 2020 21:20

Hello,

Does anyone know how strong this army should have been in the first German planning for "Barbarossa", before December 1940 (that is, before to be assigned to "Marita")?
In particular, did it was strengthened with Panzer-Divisionen?

Thank you for any information about this.
Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 08 Apr 2020 22:31

CNE503 wrote:
08 Apr 2020 21:20
Hello,

Does anyone know how strong this army should have been in the first German planning for "Barbarossa", before December 1940 (that is, before to be assigned to "Marita")?
In particular, did it was strengthened with Panzer-Divisionen?

Thank you for any information about this.
Regards,

CNE503
Short answer.

AOK 17 was create to take place of AOK 12. What units and what role was for AOK 17 is answer to question.

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2047
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 09 Apr 2020 08:32

Are you sure about that?
I read that 12. Armee should have been quite strong and operate with armored divisions. Its staging area would have been partly in Romania, too.
Is this incorrect?

Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 09 Apr 2020 13:59

CNE503 wrote:
09 Apr 2020 08:32
Are you sure about that?
I read that 12. Armee should have been quite strong and operate with armored divisions. Its staging area would have been partly in Romania, too.
Is this incorrect?

Regards,
CNE503
In august 1940 General Marcks was make study for invasion. Study was have 5 Germany armys for to invade.

In june 1941 invasion was start with 10 armys and 4 tankgroups.

From Marcks study to start invasion was have much changes for to commanding structure.

From Marcks study to start invasion was have much changes for to plans. Was change schwerpunkt. Was change mostest important line for to advance.

From Marcks study to start invasion was have much changes for to total divisions, type divisions, location divisions.

Maybe if was write here more datas on what you read before maybe i can to understand better your problem.

Please to remember until december 1940 planning barbarossa was at okh level. Only on january 1941 was start armys commands studys and plans.

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2047
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 09 Apr 2020 14:49

Mmmmh, there was also the OKW study from Oberstleutnant von Lossberg (Operationsstudie "Ost"), given to Jodl on September 15th, 1940.
But AOK 12 was scheduled to be a part of it, and because of "Marita" was not.
According to what I read - even if it seems odd to me - 12. Armee staging area was partly in Romania. My question is: was 11. Armee taking at least a part of what was previously intended to be 12. Armee task organization, and was it significantly understrengthed comparing to 12. Armee?

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 09 Apr 2020 16:37

CNE503 wrote:
09 Apr 2020 14:49
Mmmmh, there was also the OKW study from Oberstleutnant von Lossberg (Operationsstudie "Ost"), given to Jodl on September 15th, 1940.
But AOK 12 was scheduled to be a part of it, and because of "Marita" was not.
According to what I read - even if it seems odd to me - 12. Armee staging area was partly in Romania. My question is: was 11. Armee taking at least a part of what was previously intended to be 12. Armee task organization, and was it significantly understrengthed comparing to 12. Armee?

CNE503
Maybe if was write here more datas on what you read before maybe i can to understand better your problem.

Example.
Before december AOK.12 was be in Poland. Then was go to Wien in december. Then was go to Bucharest in january. AOK.17 was take place of AOK.12 in Poland. That is answer i was give. But you was not like.

AOK.11 was go Bucharest in may.

So please you can to give more datas for me to understand what you want.

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2047
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 09 Apr 2020 20:27

In a very recent French book (2019) written by the leading French scholar about the topic (Jean Lopez), the following is stated (I translated from French to English):
"Initially, Halder had planned a huge encirclement of the Soviet forces located between Dniestr and Dniepr, with the two prongs using armored units. The first one was to attack from Lublin with two armies (6. and 17.), the second one from Romania with the 12. Armee.
The decision to assign the very powerful 12. Armee (17,5 divisions) to attack Greece compelled OKH to modify its deployment with two orders, dated April 2nd and 12th, 1941. 12. Armee was replaced, on the Romanian border, by the weak 11. Armee, without armor; the encirclement operation was cancelled and a simple one-pronged attack was to be launched by the forces from Lublin area".

It's here (in French though): https://books.google.fr/books?id=xHGrDw ... 22&f=false
From "Barbarossa 1941, the absolute war", Jean Lopez and Lasha Otkhmezuri, éditions Passés composés, 2019, 956 pages (https://www.amazon.fr/Barbarossa-guerre ... 289&sr=1-1).

I repeat my question: early 1941, apparently, before being tasked to crush Greece, 12. Armee was scheduled to attack from Romania into USSR to assist the encirclement of the Soviet forces of the military district of Odessa between Dniestr and Dniepr. This order was obviously cancelled, probably as early as March 2nd, 1941 (when 12. Armee entered Bulgaria), maybe before.
But what were the forces that were to be part of its attack in southern Ukraine according to the initial OKH planning?

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 09 Apr 2020 22:01

CNE503 wrote:
09 Apr 2020 20:27
In a very recent French book (2019) written by the leading French scholar about the topic (Jean Lopez), the following is stated (I translated from French to English):
"Initially, Halder had planned a huge encirclement of the Soviet forces located between Dniestr and Dniepr, with the two prongs using armored units. The first one was to attack from Lublin with two armies (6. and 17.), the second one from Romania with the 12. Armee.
The decision to assign the very powerful 12. Armee (17,5 divisions) to attack Greece compelled OKH to modify its deployment with two orders, dated April 2nd and 12th, 1941. 12. Armee was replaced, on the Romanian border, by the weak 11. Armee, without armor; the encirclement operation was cancelled and a simple one-pronged attack was to be launched by the forces from Lublin area".

It's here (in French though): https://books.google.fr/books?id=xHGrDw ... 22&f=false
From "Barbarossa 1941, the absolute war", Jean Lopez and Lasha Otkhmezuri, éditions Passés composés, 2019, 956 pages (https://www.amazon.fr/Barbarossa-guerre ... 289&sr=1-1).

I repeat my question: early 1941, apparently, before being tasked to crush Greece, 12. Armee was scheduled to attack from Romania into USSR to assist the encirclement of the Soviet forces of the military district of Odessa between Dniestr and Dniepr. This order was obviously cancelled, probably as early as March 2nd, 1941 (when 12. Armee entered Bulgaria), maybe before.
But what were the forces that were to be part of its attack in southern Ukraine according to the initial OKH planning?

CNE503
Merci,

Now i think i can to understand problem. Lopez was confuse and was mix different okh studies and plans together. Not good research and analyze.

In august 1940 General Marcks was write study. His study was propose HG.Sud was to have 2 Armee. 1.Armee (12.) was plan invade from Roumania and 2.Armee (16.) was plan invade from south Poland. Marcks propose 1.

Marcks study was not be plan for Barbarossa. Only study for ideas.

AOK.12 was go from France to South Poland not AOK.16. AOK.16 was go from Belgium to East Prussia.

General Paulus was make first plans but nobody was find documents. General Halder maybe was make some changes before was present Hitler. Hitler was make some changes then was write Weisung 21. Nobody know what AOK in what location on Paulus or Halder or Hitler plan because documents was not found. But cannot be AOK.17 like was write Lopez because not exist at time.

At same time as Halder and Hitler plans was decide AOK.12 can to invade Greece.

After Weisung 21 okh must to write Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa of HGs. Document was date 31/01/1941. On Aufmarschananweisung Barbarossa AOK.6 and AOK.17 was invade from south Poland and AOK.11 was invade from Roumania.

I repeat my question: early 1941, apparently, before being tasked to crush Greece, 12. Armee was scheduled to attack from Romania into USSR to assist the encirclement of the Soviet forces of the military district of Odessa between Dniestr and Dniepr. This order was obviously cancelled, probably as early as March 2nd, 1941 (when 12. Armee entered Bulgaria), maybe before.


You not understand correct.

AOK.12 was never scheduled to attack from Roumania into USSR. AOK.12 was never get orders to plan invade or to invade USSR.

If AOK.12 was never get orders in december for to plan invade Greece then it was to invade from South Poland as AOK.17 was not create.

But what were the forces that were to be part of its attack in southern Ukraine according to the initial OKH planning?


In Marcks study was be 1.Armee (12.)
In Paulus, Halder, Hitler plans and Weisung 21 nobody know but best guess AOK.11
In first okh orders to HGr was be AOK.11

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 09 Apr 2020 23:40

I was make error in last message.

Original Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa 31/01/1941 was write AOK.12 was plan invade from Roumania but document was changed to AOK.11

In that document was not write what was forces.

In ktb HG.Sud was write 2 Pz.Div and SS."W".

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2047
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 10 Apr 2020 08:24

Ok. In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether it was AOK 12 that was scheduled to do so. It happened that this attack from Romania was scheduled. And you answered my question: with a motorized army corps consisting in two armored and one motorized divisions (the SS-Division "Wiking").
It clears the matter up!

Have you some references (for instance, where can I find the Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa)?

Thank you for your help, greatly appreciated.
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 10 Apr 2020 13:54

CNE503 wrote:
10 Apr 2020 08:24
Ok. In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether it was AOK 12 that was scheduled to do so. It happened that this attack from Romania was scheduled. And you answered my question: with a motorized army corps consisting in two armored and one motorized divisions (the SS-Division "Wiking").
It clears the matter up!

Have you some references (for instance, where can I find the Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa)?

Thank you for your help, greatly appreciated.
CNE503
On august 1940 General Marcks study was propose 1.Armee (12.) from Roumania with 6 infantrys 4 motorizeds and 2 tanks divisions.

On january 1941 OKH plan to HGr was plan for to have AOK.12 11 infantrys 2 tanks 1 light infantrys and SS."W". Datas was not write on main Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa document but was write on anlage and was write in many others documents.

On february 1941 HG.A (later HG.Sud) was write Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa to AOKs. Datas for what divisions was write in anlage. Anlage was change many times and was write 7 infantrys only for AOK.11 on may 1941.

General Marcks study:
Operationsentwurf Ost, OKH Chef des Gen St d H, Osten I, Studie Nr.139, 5.8.1940

Orders from OKH to HGr.:
Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa, OKH Chef des Gen St d H, Op.Abt.(IV), Nr.050/41 g.Kdos, 31.1.1941

Orders from HGr. to AOK and Pz.Gp.:
Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa, Heeresgruppe A (Sud), Ia, Nr.150/41 g.Kdos, 15.2.1941
Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa, Oberkommando der Heeresgruppe B, Ia, Nr.500/41 g.Kdos.Chefsache, 13.2.1941

HG Sud KTB Ia 1.Teil 2.2.41-21.6.41 have Potsdam archive number 13603,3.

I think i was find documents on internet. But now i was find on my pc.

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2047
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 10 Apr 2020 14:37

Hello,

If you have links to these documents or to websites where they can be downloaded, please be my guest!
Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 10 Apr 2020 15:51

I was find some datas on change for you in HG.Sud ktb

On 27 march 1941 was have conference OKH and HG.Sud and was make decision to make change of divisions location for Barbarossa. One change was move XIV.Pz.K from Roumania to Pz.Gp.1 in south Poland.

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Member
Posts: 1435
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 22 Apr 2020 14:05

CNE503 wrote:In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether it was AOK 12 that was scheduled to do so. It happened that this attack from Romania was scheduled. And you answered my question: with a motorized army corps consisting in two armored and one motorized divisions (the SS-Division "Wiking").
You're right to focus on this potential thrust, regardless of the AOK number involved. I've discussed the enormous potential of a Galicia kessel in a couple "What If" threads. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=243557

It's not clear to me that a single panzer corps would have sufficed, however. Southwest Front stymied the Ostheer more effectively than anywhere else on the front, largely due to its numerical superiority in June/July. Moving a panzer corps from Kleist's northern drive probably would have slowed it considerably (although Kleist held ~half his force in reserve initially so perhaps could have spared a corps).

The early versions of Barbarossa planning included three mobile divisions (2 panzer, 1 mot.inf) that were delayed by the Balkans campaign, held in reserve, and weren't released until Taifun. If Germany can somehow get those divisions into the mix, they might be able to form the Romanian pincer. Though it's still doubtful whether they possessed sufficient power to encircle Southwest Front. More likely they cause earlier evacuation of Galicia and Western Ukraine, which isn't insignificant.

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2047
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 22 Apr 2020 14:46

Thank you for these elements, guys!
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”