Number of French vs Germans divisions 1940

[Kelvin]

Hi, in Western Campaign of 1940, German had 136 divisions for Campaign. The allies had 94 French, 9 Dutch, 22 Belgian and 13 British division = 136 divisions.

French actually had many non divisional units is equivalent to divisions :

Fortified Sector Montmedy had 13 x Machine gun battalions in several Fortress Regiments.

Fortified Sector Rohrbach and Haguenau each had 12 x machine gun battalions

Fortified Sector Faulquemont had 6 x MG battalions and 6 x infantry battalions.

Fortified Sector Boulay had 8 x MG battalions and 3 x infantry battalions

Fortiified Sector Sarre had 9 x MG battalions

Fortified Sector Thionvills had 8 x MG battalions

Also Island of Corsica had 10 x infantry battalions : 1-III./363th Alpine Chasseur Demi Brigade and IV-X./373rd RI.

Those Units can form 10 divisions

Besides, behind Maginot Line, there were 7 x Pyrenness Chasseur battalions and 6 x Legere Infantry battalions, so one more division. Two small Fortified Sector and two Fortress Corps 42nd and 43rd (several MG battalions) each form one division.

Regarding the Army of Alps, apart from 64 and 65th Alpine divisions and 66th Infantry division and 2nd DIC, their three Fortified Sectors had 8 x Alpine Chasseur Fortress Brigades with 23 x Alpine Fortress battalions. Also 1 x mountain MG battalion and 3 x Pyrenees Chasseur battalions and 2 x Legere infantry divisions, all These separate untis would be grouped into another three divisions.

So Maginot Line separate Units formed 13 divisions, Corsica formed one division and The Army of Alps separate Units formed another 3 divisions total 17 additional divisions.

So French actually had 94 divisions in Metropolitan France plus 17 big Units equivalent to divisions = 111 plus 44 allied divisions = 155 divisions.

On the other Hand, apart from 136 divisions and 11th Motorized infantry Brigade, did German had other minor Units for Campaign in the West ? Thank

[ljadw]

If you count the French Alpine divisions, you must also count the Italian divisions on the other side of the Alps .And the French forces in Corsica never fought against the Germans,thus you should not count them .Germany had a numerical majority in the north-east region .

[Kelvin]

If you count the French Alpine divisions, you must also count the Italian divisions on the other side of the Alps .And the French forces in Corsica never fought against the Germans,thus you should not count them .Germany had a numerical majority in the north-east region .

The aim of my post is look in Detail over Military might of both Germany and France in 1940. In Military potential aspect, in term of Population, both German and French empire had over 100 Million People each, I mean the Third Reich included newly occupied territories in Poland, Czech and Austria, and France of Course included ist huge Colonial empire in Africa and Indo-China.
Italy, of Course would be French stragetic consideration, so France needed the Army of Alps and large Garrison and heavy forification in Tunisia.

For France, her Job is protect her territories from German or possible Italian Aggression. I would Count on her all mobilized Military resouces in Metropolitan France, while German at least needed to pay some Attention on USSR in the east. Just like the case in French attitude towards Italy, the Long time neutrality of USSR is not ensured,

What I know German strength in the West facing France were 136 divisions and 1 motorized Brigade. I want to know any separate Units also took part in Invasion of France and Low Countries ?

Many years old, I only know France had 94 divisions and 33 separate tank battalions on Hand and Maginot Line in a war against Germany, but Right now I know France had more than These.

In Metropolitan France,

92 Divisions on Hand

7 x Motorized Infantry divisions

63 x Infantry divisions ( 46 x Metropolitan Divisions, 10 x North African or African Infantry divisions, 7 x Colonial infantry divisions)

5 x Alpine Division

3 x Light Mechanized division ( fast tank divisions)

5 x Light Cavalry division ( Cavalry-motorized mixed divisions)

3 x Armored divisions

5 x Fortress Infantry divisions

4 x Cavalry Brigades (1 x French and 3 x North African)

272nd Demi Brigades with 3 infantry battalions

33 x Fortress Regiments

23 x Alpine Fortress Battalions organized in eight Alpine Fortress Demibrigade but all facing Italian.

10 x Pyrennes Chasseur Battalions ( 7 in Maginot line and other three facing Italian0

8 x Legere Infantry battalion ( 6 in Maginot line and two in Alps)

2 x separate Chasseur battalion in Maginot line

14 x B class infantry battalions specially for important port Defence in Marsailles, Toulon, Le Havre, Dunkirk, st Nazire,

10 x Infantry battalions specially for Defence of Corsica Island, obviously in Military standpoint, it would be Italian objective.

33 x separate Tank Battalions

19 x separate machine gun battalions , 8 of which were motorized.

72 x Infantry Training battalions

15 x Fortress Training battalions

23 x Corps Reconn battalions, 3 of which were motorized.

There are all Combat troop and not Count separate Artillery Units and AA Units

French also have 112 regional Regiments but mostly were under equipped or even no arms.

[ljadw]

I have to disagree : 94 divisions is the number of French divisions in France, of which only a part was available against Germany .You can't count /add up the number of separate batallions and transform them in divisions .Besides the Germans had also non divisionary units .
Outside France, there were another 18 divisions .
Other point : if you count the division in Corsica (1240 km away from Sedan ) , you must also add the German divisions in East Prussia ( 1500 km from Cologne ) and why not counting the divisions of the Home Forces in Britain .
If you count everything that was in France ( 94 divisions + separate batallions ), you must count everything that was in Germany (157 divisions minus those in Norway and Denmark ) .135 German divisions were earmarked for Fall Gelb, the French OTOH had no 135 divisions to deploy against Fall Gelb ,that's why they were that depending on the BEF and the Belgians .
Last point : that France and its Empire had the same population as Germany with the Reichsprotektorat and occupied Poland does not mean that they had the same human potential, as conscription existed only in France ( 40 million people) and not in the Empire ( 60 million ) while Germany without Poland and Czechia had 80 million of inhabitants.

[Kelvin]

I think German would prefer to build " division" generally, in Normandy, German divisons accounted for over 80% in total Ground Forces. The Western allies had more non-divisional Units in comparsion with German force. USSR also had more non-divisional Units in total ground Forces. But German had the Habit to build division when some Units strength reached or nearly division Level.

If Corsica was in German Hand, German at least build a division in Corsica. For several Fortified Sector, German would redesignated into several static divisions. I think 87 x so called Training battalions, Hitler would build another 6-battalion infantry divisions.

I suggest German had less non-divisional Units than her French counterpart.

[Loïc]

Indeed as pointed by ljadw la France des 100 millions d'habitants is a myth more good for the newpapers of 1939 than anything else...
the French Empire is no longer the New France with French-Canadians or the Créoles de Louisiane, no comparison with the British Commonwealth with their European Overseas Dominions, limited to Algeria and few small Old Colonies
la Corrèze n'est pas le Zambèze you can't conscript any territory of Cambodia or Oubangui-Chari like if it was a metropolitan department with 150 years of conscription

the case of Indochina -23 millions of inhabitants - second population in the "Empire" after metropolitan France (with the metropolitan ratio of ~12,5% of mobilised should mean 2 875 000 Indochinese under arms)
Commandant Diego Brosset before joining Free France was attached to the Ministry of the Colonies where he noted in his diary the illusions of his own minister Mandel and the others coming from the newpapers claiming that the colonies would mobilise one "million" of men
November 8th 1939 the newspapers received a communication from the Colonial Department where we read "orders have been given to bring from Tonkin 70,000 workers and that millions of others can follow because this is only the beginning"
actually...90 000 sent to France in 1914-1918...of which 50 000 are only workers
in 1939-1940 came from Indochina in France as major contingents civilian workers organised in 73 companies, then as military 20 field bakery auxiliary companies and at last 16 AAA machine-gun groups; 2 Pioneer Battalions for Syria-Lebanon and further labour battalions should be raised in France...

concerning black Africa
about the ~100 000 Ivorians called to the Recruiting Services in 1940 73% of them were rejected after physical and health examinations...

64 battalions should be sent more 100 Detachments with 1 000 untrained recruits each until the 1st july 1941
it is quite unlikely that the objectives of Plan E could have been achieved (...) this plan was not related either to the possibilities of supervision, or to those of armament, lodging and maritime transport. Furthermore, already observed between 1914 and 1918, the male capacities of the colonies of black Africa were overvalued.
Once again, the French idea of an Africa "reservoir of men" led the civil and military authorities to build largely unrealistic mobilization plans.

Les Tirailleurs Sénégalais 1939-1945
Julien Fargettas

the 150 Divisions imagined by Daladier early 1940
we had a considerable plan of new Divisions as the President [of the Council] Daladier had approved it to reach the total of 150.
These Divisions were created on the one hand with what the Minister gave us, on the other hand with what we took from North Africa and the colonies
(...)
Certainly we had divisions in formation. President Daladier had promised me to arrive at the total of 150 Divisions, which would have represented some 25 more divisions for the northeast, but we were approaching the maximum that metropolitan France could provide us.
From the point of view of war, the output of the colonial populations is not the same as that of the metropolitan populations. We would have been finally overwhelmed by the number of Germans, by necessity, because they could form more divisions and more quickly.
(...)
We had approximately 500,000 fewer young men compared to 1914, while taking into account the youngs in Alsace and Lorraine (Moselle) we did not have. My subsequent program based mainly, as I have already said, on colonial, was to bring the number of our divisions to 150.
Of course: trained cadres and material where would he find them given the significant losses that would occur in May?
This, without forgetting that our "colonials" could only be volunteers since the only ones compelled to the military service had to be citizens of full rights...

Général Gamelin

[Carl Schwamberger]

For general information heres a view of the deployment of the French on the NE front 10 May 1940. It should clarify what the French had to face the German attack.

This map was given to me several decades ago & I did not retain information of its origin. If anyone recognizes it & can tell me the source it would be appreciated. Merci & thanks.

[Kelvin]

Indeed as pointed by ljadw la France des 100 millions d'habitants is a myth more good for the newpapers of 1939 than anything else...
the French Empire is no longer the New France with French-Canadians or the Créoles de Louisiane, no comparison with the British Commonwealth with their European Overseas Dominions, limited to Algeria and few small Old Colonies
la Corrèze n'est pas le Zambèze you can't conscript any territory of Cambodia or Oubangui-Chari like if it was a metropolitan department with 150 years of conscription

the case of Indochina -23 millions of inhabitants - second population in the "Empire" after metropolitan France (with the metropolitan ratio of ~12,5% of mobilised should mean 2 875 000 Indochinese under arms)
Commandant Diego Brosset before joining Free France was attached to the Ministry of the Colonies where he noted in his diary the illusions of his own minister Mandel and the others coming from the newpapers claiming that the colonies would mobilise one "million" of men
November 8th 1939 the newspapers received a communication from the Colonial Department where we read "orders have been given to bring from Tonkin 70,000 workers and that millions of others can follow because this is only the beginning"
actually...90 000 sent to France in 1914-1918...of which 50 000 are only workers
in 1939-1940 came from Indochina in France as major contingents civilian workers organised in 73 companies, then as military 20 field bakery auxiliary companies and at last 16 AAA machine-gun groups; 2 Pioneer Battalions for Syria-Lebanon and further labour battalions should be raised in France...

concerning black Africa
about the ~100 000 Ivorians called to the Recruiting Services in 1940 73% of them were rejected after physical and health examinations...

64 battalions should be sent more 100 Detachments with 1 000 untrained recruits each until the 1st july 1941
it is quite unlikely that the objectives of Plan E could have been achieved (...) this plan was not related either to the possibilities of supervision, or to those of armament, lodging and maritime transport. Furthermore, already observed between 1914 and 1918, the male capacities of the colonies of black Africa were overvalued.
Once again, the French idea of an Africa "reservoir of men" led the civil and military authorities to build largely unrealistic mobilization plans.

Les Tirailleurs Sénégalais 1939-1945
Julien Fargettas

the 150 Divisions imagined by Daladier early 1940
we had a considerable plan of new Divisions as the President [of the Council] Daladier had approved it to reach the total of 150.
These Divisions were created on the one hand with what the Minister gave us, on the other hand with what we took from North Africa and the colonies
(...)
Certainly we had divisions in formation. President Daladier had promised me to arrive at the total of 150 Divisions, which would have represented some 25 more divisions for the northeast, but we were approaching the maximum that metropolitan France could provide us.
From the point of view of war, the output of the colonial populations is not the same as that of the metropolitan populations. We would have been finally overwhelmed by the number of Germans, by necessity, because they could form more divisions and more quickly.
(...)
We had approximately 500,000 fewer young men compared to 1914, while taking into account the youngs in Alsace and Lorraine (Moselle) we did not have. My subsequent program based mainly, as I have already said, on colonial, was to bring the number of our divisions to 150.
Of course: trained cadres and material where would he find them given the significant losses that would occur in May?
This, without forgetting that our "colonials" could only be volunteers since the only ones compelled to the military service had to be citizens of full rights...

Général Gamelin

Hi, Loic, thank for your Information. But I would like to ask if the salaries of African volunteers for Military Service is attractive ?
For war in Europe, if extremely high salaries perhaps stimulated huge employment of African volunteer.

But any serious Health Problem in West Africa ?, 73% of 100000 Ivory Coast People were rejected ? Thank

Should all French West Africa were mobilized, they would have 1 Million African soldies for that out of 15 Million Population.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Kelvin,

One cannot directly equate the Third Reich with the French Empire.

Metropolitan France had barely half the population of Hitler's Reich and a lower birth rate. As a result, in the second half of the 1930s the Germans were conscripting two men for military service to every one Frenchman.

The French had various ways of compensating for this. The Versailles Treaty was the first, but it was a dead letter by the mid 1930s.

The second was to build advanced fortifications, which was why the Maginot Line was undertaken.

The third was to mobilise as much of its colonial manpower as possible, which was handicapped by their low education standards, difficulty in supplying the necessary specialist officers and their initial remoteness from the Western Front. However, the population of the entire French Empire was not much bigger than that of France itself, so even with its manpower the empire only just topped Germany's population and was, necessarily, likely to be far less reliable and usable.

These were all likely to prove insufficient, so France needed allies. The only one of weight available was the UK, but this had a minuscule army (2 divisions available at the time of the Munich Crisis), which would still leave France carrying the main burden of a land war with Germany for at least two years.

The French were in a real hole in 1939-40 and would still have been so in 1941.

Must go,

Sid.