Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

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LadyHerta
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Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by LadyHerta » 18 Nov 2019 04:32

Hello,

I thought that this forum might be the best place to ask this, but is anyone able to please point in the right direction from the copyright holder for this photograph of Heydrich and the Girl from his Naval days?

Am wishing to use it on the cover of a Historical fiction novel I am currently writing based on these events. Thank you

Hertha
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lartiste
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by lartiste » 19 Nov 2019 22:17

Most probably the photo is free since the author's rights, at least in EU, but I think it is harmonized world wide, lasts for 70 years from the date of decease of the author.

LadyHerta
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by LadyHerta » 24 Nov 2019 06:49

lartiste wrote:
19 Nov 2019 22:17
Most probably the photo is free since the author's rights, at least in EU, but I think it is harmonized world wide, lasts for 70 years from the date of decease of the author.
My apologies for my late reply. Thank you for this, the photograph was taken in July(?) 1928. I just did not wish to infringe any copyright if I used it and thought it was best I check.

Herta

tzt4
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by tzt4 » 24 Nov 2019 15:11

I suppose in most cases it is hard to know the date of a photographer’s death for the vast majority of casual photos by participants in the war, in order to allow for the 70 years.
If obtained at an estate sale, the obtainer at least has a date. But those key facts of author+death date, would rarely follow photos once they propagate on the internet.

How does one overcome that?

history1
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by history1 » 24 Nov 2019 20:19

lartiste wrote:
19 Nov 2019 22:17
Most probably the photo is free since the author's rights, at least in EU, but I think it is harmonized world wide, lasts for 70 years from the date of decease of the author.
Do not assume, and do not spread misinformation!
Do you know when the photographer died? He might have been twenty or even fifty during WWII. With an average lifespan of males in Central Europe of ~80 years the copyright holder might have died from 1970 - 2010. Add your 70 years and you get the year when it will be copyright free.
But what when the photographer died during WWII? Then the case is totally different.
On the other hand (as we do nt know the photographer) he might have expected that he/she (as we even don´t know the gender of the photographer) will not survive WWII and hand down/bequeath the copyright to another person/family member. This is possible according Austrian laws. And no one knows if this wasn´t/isn´t the fact. And this might continue from generation to generation. That´s what professional photographers do as a rule.

lartiste
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by lartiste » 24 Nov 2019 22:25

history1 wrote:
24 Nov 2019 20:19
lartiste wrote:
19 Nov 2019 22:17
Most probably the photo is free since the author's rights, at least in EU, but I think it is harmonized world wide, lasts for 70 years from the date of decease of the author.
Do not assume, and do not spread misinformation!
Do you know when the photographer died? He might have been twenty or even fifty during WWII. With an average lifespan of males in Central Europe of ~80 years the copyright holder might have died from 1970 - 2010. Add your 70 years and you get the year when it will be copyright free.
But what when the photographer died during WWII? Then the case is totally different.
On the other hand (as we do nt know the photographer) he might have expected that he/she (as we even don´t know the gender of the photographer) will not survive WWII and hand down/bequeath the copyright to another person/family member. This is possible according Austrian laws. And no one knows if this wasn´t/isn´t the fact. And this might continue from generation to generation. That´s what professional photographers do as a rule.

Do not spread miss information! First you need study the subject matter!


Whatever you do, you are not able to lenghten the duration of copyright protection. Even if you will transfer certain rights - please do not forget that in EU you are unable to transfer all rights, just certain rights, you will not extend the duration of copyright. There are certain tricks how to do it, but why to spread know how :wink:.

Just please study e.g. Berne convention, copyright directive and especially Directive 2006/116/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 12 December 2006 on the term of protection of copyright and certain related rights etc. and you will understand the subject better.

And what directive 2006/116/EC says on anonymous work? You will find the answer in Article 1, section 3 or 6 (depends). When you will finish your study, comeback to say sorry.

And even to aforementioned information there is high probability, that the copyright expired years ago ... .

history1
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by history1 » 25 Nov 2019 20:55

lartiste wrote:
24 Nov 2019 22:25
[...]Do not spread miss information! First you need study the subject matter!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
As press photographer and editorial journalist who makes a living with copyright protected work since decades I sure have no clue about.
lartiste wrote:
24 Nov 2019 22:25
Whatever you do, you are not able to lenghten the duration of copyright protection. Even if you will transfer certain rights - please do not forget that in EU you are unable to transfer all rights, just certain rights, you will not extend the duration of copyright.
Dude, you´re confusing two things or did not read what I wrote.
1. NO ONE can sell a copyright, you only sell the right of use of a photography.
2. That´s why I explained that the copyright can be only bequeathed.
Übertragung des Urheberrechts

Durch Vertrag kann das Urheberrecht (in Österreich) selbst grundsätzlich nicht übertragen werden, es kann jedoch vererbt werden
Source: https://www.wko.at/service/wirtschaftsr ... ernet.html
See also:https://www.urheberrecht.de/vererben/
lartiste wrote:
24 Nov 2019 22:25
There are certain tricks how to do it, but why to spread know how :wink:.
Because this is a forum where its members share knowledge.
lartiste wrote:
24 Nov 2019 22:25
"And what directive 2006/116/EC says on anonymous work? You will find the answer in Article 1, section 3 or 6 (depends). When you will finish your study, comeback to say sorry. [...]
It says "
3. In the case of anonymous or pseudonymous works, the term of protection shall run for 70 years after the work is lawfully made available to the public.
The question is now was it ever lawfully published or made available to the public? Or is it a random copy from a private collection/album? Can YOU answer this question with certainty?
I doubt that! Good luck in your research! Don´t forget to inform us when and where it was lawfully published and to provide the evidence that it was lawful!
It rather seems that you read text/laws and can´t interprete/understand what you read.

LadyHerta
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by LadyHerta » 26 Nov 2019 08:18

history1 wrote:
25 Nov 2019 20:55
The question is now was it ever lawfully published or made available to the public? Or is it a random copy from a private collection/album?
Forgive me, but all I asked was if someone knew of the copyright holder so I could obtain permission to use it. I tried to image search it in Google, to see if that could lead me to the copyright holder but no avail, hence why I came here asking if anyone knew.

The results I found stated that it was from either a private family photograph album of either Heydrich or the girl but nothing else.

Thank you for all the information thus far and I will continue my search. If anyone knows then I’d be happy to hear from them.

Herta

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Gorque
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by Gorque » 26 Nov 2019 11:28

Hi LadyHerta:

I see that the picture is listed in pinterest by the user Natalee within the folder Ljubecka. Have you tried contacting this person?

What efforts have you made so far in your search? I ask this so that a duplication of effort is not made by me or others.

PS: Per the pinterest user, the girl is his future wife, Lina Mathilde, nee von Osten, later Manninen. The picture's date was supposedly taken in 1929.

HTH

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Nov 2019 12:27

There is no copyright on official Nazi material. However, this may be a private photo belonging to the family.

UK copyright used to be 50 years, but was changed to the European norm of 70 years in about 1990. As a result, material I had hitherto been photocopying freely in the British Library came back under copyright restrictions.

Cheers,

Sid.

history1
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by history1 » 26 Nov 2019 18:06

Sid, we don´t know the photographer only the motiv. And this seems rather been shot on a private occasion and likely by a private photographer/person/relative, and not the officer attending a NSDAP happening, eg. a Reichstag speech. That makes it a bit difficult.

@Herta: It´s obvious that we are trying to help you, hence I don´t understand the need of your first sentence in your last post. I would recommend you do what reliable publishers do, namely state in your book that you were not able to find the copyright holder of this image and ask the reader, if he/she does hold the copyright to contact you as to settle the right of use for this image.
IN this way it is at least visible that you didn´t intent to violate any copyright but your search wasn´t fruitful and your use will be more likely excused. This is for sure cheaper for you than having a copyright holder finding out that you did use it without his/her allowance as the consequence would be the request of the multiple of the right of use - bill for a copyright violation. The right of use calculation depends onto the run, less books is cheaper than many book.

lartiste
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by lartiste » 26 Nov 2019 22:08

history1 wrote:
25 Nov 2019 20:55
lartiste wrote:
24 Nov 2019 22:25
[...]Do not spread miss information! First you need study the subject matter!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
As press photographer and editorial journalist who makes a living with copyright protected work since decades I sure have no clue about.
lartiste wrote:
24 Nov 2019 22:25
Whatever you do, you are not able to lenghten the duration of copyright protection. Even if you will transfer certain rights - please do not forget that in EU you are unable to transfer all rights, just certain rights, you will not extend the duration of copyright.
Dude, you´re confusing two things or did not read what I wrote.
1. NO ONE can sell a copyright, you only sell the right of use of a photography.
2. That´s why I explained that the copyright can be only bequeathed.
Übertragung des Urheberrechts

Durch Vertrag kann das Urheberrecht (in Österreich) selbst grundsätzlich nicht übertragen werden, es kann jedoch vererbt werden
Source: https://www.wko.at/service/wirtschaftsr ... ernet.html
See also:https://www.urheberrecht.de/vererben/
lartiste wrote:
24 Nov 2019 22:25
There are certain tricks how to do it, but why to spread know how :wink:.
Because this is a forum where its members share knowledge.
lartiste wrote:
24 Nov 2019 22:25
"And what directive 2006/116/EC says on anonymous work? You will find the answer in Article 1, section 3 or 6 (depends). When you will finish your study, comeback to say sorry. [...]
It says "
3. In the case of anonymous or pseudonymous works, the term of protection shall run for 70 years after the work is lawfully made available to the public.
The question is now was it ever lawfully published or made available to the public? Or is it a random copy from a private collection/album? Can YOU answer this question with certainty?
I doubt that! Good luck in your research! Don´t forget to inform us when and where it was lawfully published and to provide the evidence that it was lawful!
It rather seems that you read text/laws and can´t interprete/understand what you read.
History1

I am sorry, but this is typical, you are a legal expert with strong opinion but lacks legal education … . And sorry even the editorial work is not legal practice.

You said, that the copyright can be hand down/ bequeath (correct term is inherited). Handed down means typically transferred among generations which is definitely not the same as inherited… .

If you are editor and copyright expert, then you must know that it is not that difficult to lengthen the copyright - it is enough to modify original work and it is new work which is copyright protected. This is typical trick how to keep monopoly e.g. over opera note material.

And typically for non lawyers you forget second section of the directive which I pointed out:

“In the case of works for which the term of protection is not calculated from the death of the author or authors and which have not been lawfully made available to the public within 70 years from their creation, the protection shall terminate.”

So your final point is, that you must read even more carefully before you start argument. Because provided that you will read the EU legislation carefully enough you will find out, that it does not matter whether the anonymous work has been lawfully made available to public or not.
Last edited by lartiste on 26 Nov 2019 22:16, edited 1 time in total.

lartiste
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by lartiste » 26 Nov 2019 22:14

history1 wrote:
26 Nov 2019 18:06
Sid, we don´t know the photographer only the motiv. And this seems rather been shot on a private occasion and likely by a private photographer/person/relative, and not the officer attending a NSDAP happening, eg. a Reichstag speech. That makes it a bit difficult.

@Herta: It´s obvious that we are trying to help you, hence I don´t understand the need of your first sentence in your last post. I would recommend you do what reliable publishers do, namely state in your book that you were not able to find the copyright holder of this image and ask the reader, if he/she does hold the copyright to contact you as to settle the right of use for this image.
IN this way it is at least visible that you didn´t intent to violate any copyright but your search wasn´t fruitful and your use will be more likely excused. This is for sure cheaper for you than having a copyright holder finding out that you did use it without his/her allowance as the consequence would be the request of the multiple of the right of use - bill for a copyright violation. The right of use calculation depends onto the run, less books is cheaper than many book.
I would like to see the dispute since it would be really interesting how to prove who the author was. Witness statements? :wink:

In general I agree, let's try to contact person who is spreading the image whether she/he knows who the copyright owner is (if any) and do reasonable effort to find out who the author is. If you will not find out, then use it as it is.

history1
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by history1 » 27 Nov 2019 09:09

lartiste wrote:
26 Nov 2019 22:08
[...]
History1

I am sorry, but this is typical, you are a legal expert with strong opinion but lacks legal education … . And sorry even the editorial work is not legal practice.
As I stated before, you do not understand what you read. Did I anywhere state it is legal practice? NO! You legal expert doesn´t even see that the use of this photo to find the copyright holder is even a copyright violation in itself.
lartiste wrote:
26 Nov 2019 22:08
You said, that the copyright can be hand down/ bequeath (correct term is inherited). Handed down means typically transferred among generations which is definitely not the same as inherited…
https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/etw.%20vererben
lartiste wrote:
26 Nov 2019 22:08
If you are editor and copyright expert, then you must know that it is not that difficult to lengthen the copyright - it is enough to modify original work and it is new work which is copyright protected. This is typical trick how to keep monopoly e.g. over opera note material.
No one asked how to change the copyright or about your alleged secret tricks you didn´t want to share before. As far as I know Herta wants to use THIS image, not an altered one.
lartiste wrote:
26 Nov 2019 22:08
And typically for non lawyers you forget second section of the directive which I pointed out:

“In the case of works for which the term of protection is not calculated from the death of the author or authors and which have not been lawfully made available to the public within 70 years from their creation, the protection shall terminate.”
You forgot that there still might be a hire who holds the copyright.
lartiste wrote:
26 Nov 2019 22:08
So your final point is, that you must read even more carefully before you start argument. Because provided that you will read the EU legislation carefully enough you will find out, that it does not matter whether the anonymous work has been lawfully made available to public or not.
As said before, you do not understand what you read. It´s you who suggests that it might be used without any legal consequences (your next posts contains the following statement from you "If you will not find out, then use it as it is."). And it was you who claimed that if the photo is from an anonymus it might be used without any problem.

history1
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Re: Copyright Request Help - Heydrich

Post by history1 » 27 Nov 2019 09:14

lartiste wrote:
26 Nov 2019 22:14
[...]
I would like to see the dispute since it would be really interesting how to prove who the author was. Witness statements? :wink:
Might be a possibility. Why not the negative film instead?
lartiste wrote:
26 Nov 2019 22:14
[...] If you will not find out, then use it as it is.
.. and risk a hefty fine and conviction.
The advice of someone who claims to have legal education. :lol:
And this was my last statement here, I don´t have precious time to waste.

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