Squad level firepower comparisons

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Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 03 Aug 2018 20:14

Ty, so just to be clear no side arms in the American squads from Feb 44 on...

Also no optics, the lack of a Springfield suggests that...

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 03 Aug 2018 20:42

Yes, pistols 'officially' deleted with the Feb44 amendment, though they get mentioned in ETO accounts. And likewise the first official recognition of a sniper rifle comes with the Aug44 T/O, which specifies one rifle M1C per Rifle Platoon. That same scale carried over into the Dec44 issue.

I do find the absence of reference to a sniper weapon in the Parachute (and Glider) Inf Bns prior to Aug44 surprising. I'm reasonably sure they can be placed in the hands of troops before that date, and cannot think of a reason for them to be omitted from the T/Os. That said my collection of US Army T/Os is modest, and acquiring them is quite difficult from the UK. The Tables of Organization and the corresponding Table of Equipment were issued as separate documents into 1943, and I only have the Aug44 equipment pages by an accident of copying with an order. It may be the 1942 T/Es addressed the issue of M1903A4s.

Gary

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 04 Aug 2018 00:14

Well its interesting that the British and Germans had one per squad and the US simply did not, having one per Platoon seams Shocking.


I had assumed that the Springfield was still in use as a sniper rifle, but again it seams they were not at all present in the US Para's in 44, and what "sniper" rifles there were, were M1C's ?

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 04 Aug 2018 01:27

Just to clarify, the Rifle Coy of the Para Bn was the only British (or Canadian) unit to have one sniper rifle per Section. The standard Rifle Coy had two fully equipped snipers as part of its Coy HQ, who were latterly moved to Bn HQ to facilitate them working in closer partnership with the Intelligence officer. The Canadian Bn added a dedicated Scout officer to oversee their snipers. One M1903A4 per Rifle Pl meant a US Inf Bn had 9 sniper rifles, which was on a par with a British or Canadian Bn with 8 sniper rifles.

The M1C was meant to replace the M1903A4 once the M1C was accepted as its successor, but it would take a while for that replacement to be effected in reality.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Cult Icon » 04 Aug 2018 02:12

how much ammo was carried for the LMG?

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 04 Aug 2018 12:49

Which LMG? This thread has covered quite a few now!

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 04 Aug 2018 18:38

I think the A6, would be my guess, the British and German Ammo allotments were covered, but not the US Para allotments.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 04 Aug 2018 21:02

Well if so I haven't seen a figure, as mentioned earlier the prescribed load is not readily available.

The only figures I've seen are from 1940 for the M1919A4 with the Weapon definitely not at Rifle Squad level. That assumed 3000 rounds per gun with an equal number again on Div Trains.
The USMC reckoned the gunner, assistant and first ammunition carrier could each manage a box so assuming 250-rounds per box that might offer 750 rounds for a three-man team as found in the Para Squad. That's purely a guess though.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 05 Aug 2018 03:26

So, to revisit the 2 in mortar briefly, just to be clear, were certain the 2 inch mortar man had a Pistole, but not clear that he certainly had a sten, in mid to late 44, though its a reasonable assumption given the surplus of stens in the units.

? Why not assume he had a rifle ? (my assumption is that the sten would be a lighter weapon to carry and easer to manage?)

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 05 Aug 2018 12:47

Either is equally plausible.

I dug out the Canadian Para Bn WE from May 1944. That gives their Rifle Section 1 pistol, 2 Sten guns, 6 rifles, 1 sniper rifle, 1 LMG and 1 2-in mortar (airborne). There's no further breakdown on who would be expected to carry which firearm provided. That's only a little removed from the 1942 figures for British and Canadian Paras of 2 pistols, 2 Sten guns, 6 rifles, 1 LMG and 1 2-in mortar (mod).

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 05 Aug 2018 15:26

K, ty

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 05 Aug 2018 20:24

Here are the subtle differences between a US para company and a US glider company;

https://www.quartermastersection.com/am ... ANY%201944

https://www.quartermastersection.com/am ... ANY1944-45

Yan.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 05 Aug 2018 22:40

Well, it lists the Springfield not the M1C, so that sorta dates it to early 44 ?

Presumably the 4 bazooks go, one each to the HQ and the three rifle platoons ?

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Aug 2018 23:25

Gary Kennedy wrote:
04 Aug 2018 21:02
Well if so I haven't seen a figure, as mentioned earlier the prescribed load is not readily available.

The only figures I've seen are from 1940 for the M1919A4 with the Weapon definitely not at Rifle Squad level. That assumed 3000 rounds per gun with an equal number again on Div Trains.
The USMC reckoned the gunner, assistant and first ammunition carrier could each manage a box so assuming 250-rounds per box that might offer 750 rounds for a three-man team as found in the Para Squad. That's purely a guess though.
Yes, the US belt-fed LMG. Given how heavy it was (30 plus pounds) I doubt that the gunner could carry an ammo box.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 05 Aug 2018 23:57

Well the Corps would disagree, though the gunner might be more sympathetic :>

From Weapons (Marine Inf Bn), based on T/O D1 of 1st July 1942;

Corporal - field glasses, compass, SMG
Gunner (No.1) - tripod, 1 chest amn, carbine (or pistol or SMG)
Asst gunner (No.2) - gun, 1 chest amn, carbine (etc)
Amn carrier (No.3) - spare barrel, spare parts, 1 chest amn, rifle
Amn carriers (Nos.4 and 5) each - 2 chests amn and rifle

M1919A4 - 34lb
tripod - 12lb
Amn chest (each) - 20.5lb, including one belt of 250 rounds

Gary

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