Deciphered Soviet messages from the Winter War

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Mangrove
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Re: Deciphered Soviet messages from the Winter War

Post by Mangrove » 26 May 2008 12:08

The Commander of JR 337 / IR 337 (Shihov) gives rather detail info on his regiment. Here's a message from Perus 1762/5.
= Ilmoitus 6033 =

Saatujen tietojen mukaan JR 337:n vahvuus 20.2. klo 18.00 oli seuraava: Päällystöä 242, alipäällystöä 525 ja miehistöä 2622. Haavoittuneita on 111. (Vrt. ilm. no. 5945).
= Message 6033 =

According to (confirmed) information the size of JR 337 was following on 20th February (1940) 6 p.m.: 242 officers, 525 NCOs and 2622 soldiers. The number of wounded is 111. (Compare to message n:o 5945).
Ps. Quite interesting data but I have never seen this kind of information at Finnish book in large scale (= used more than once at the book). This specific file was marked as ""Pidettävä salassa vuoden 1988 loppuun" (PIM:n kirj. n:o 78/5/k/6.5.1965)" so the authors of "Talvisodan Historia" couldn't exploit this "data mine".

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Re: Deciphered Soviet messages from the Winter War

Post by Mangrove » 16 Mar 2009 21:15

I'm not sure if the Saarenpää battery got these messages in time but Finns sure knew the attack on the battery was coming. The Soviet radio discipline was rather poor, although they coded the messages, since they didn't use codes for the units or targets!

Same source as in the first message of this thread.
Tstl. Okt. Revol. - Tst.1. Maratille.
17.12. klo 23.10.
Tst.1. Maratille, Laiv.Joht.os:lle, 3.Häv.D:lle, Vartiontipäällikölle, VVSKBF:n esik. päällikölle ja 11.Lento-os:lle. Pantava toimeen käskyni 7/op.
Eskaaderin päällikkö.
Battleship Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya to Battleship Marat
17th December (1939) 11.10 p.m.
To Battleship Marat, Flotilla leader, 3rd Destroyer Division, watch officer (?), Chief of Staff of VVSKBF and 11th Flying Detachment. My order 7/op must be implemented.
The Chief of the Fleet.
Ts.1.Okt.Rev. - 11.Lento-os:lle.
17.12. klo 23.20.
Pyydän lekoa lentotähystysammuntaan Saarenpäätä vastaan 18.12. klo 12.00
Battleship Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya to 11th Flying Detachment.
17th December 11.20 p.m.
Requesting an aeroplane for aerial fire control against Saarenpää on 18th December 12 p.m.

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Re: Deciphered Soviet messages from the Winter War

Post by Mangrove » 07 Dec 2009 12:23

Some of these messages can be read through the link. Messages start from page four. Images can be also found through the file tree below "Päämaja. Tiedusteluosasto 1939-1940 (SPK 3444)".

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=1735238

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AAA
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Re: Deciphered Soviet messages from the Winter War

Post by AAA » 14 Dec 2009 20:32

Martti Kujansuu wrote: It seems there isn't a single message north of Viipuri, at least I didn't find any when I quickly browsed the microfilm through. Maybe the Finnish radio intelligence had their equipment in Southern Finland so they couldn't get any messages from the north.
It may be relevant - interestingly, two former Latvian army crypto specialist captain K.Porietis and warrant officer Pauls Eizenbergs claimed in their memoirs post WW-II that Latvia has broken soviet codes in the mid-30's, and were supplying radio intel to Finland during the winter war. Unfortunately, there is no direct evidence ever come to light to back up their claims, which is not surprising considering the secret nature of such things, the delicate situation of Latvia at the time (there were soviet bases present already), and the full occupation following in the summer of '40.

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Re: Deciphered Soviet messages from the Winter War

Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 Apr 2010 20:36

Hi AAA,
AAA wrote:It may be relevant - interestingly, two former Latvian army crypto specialist captain K.Porietis and warrant officer Pauls Eizenbergs claimed in their memoirs post WW-II that Latvia has broken soviet codes in the mid-30's, and were supplying radio intel to Finland during the winter war. Unfortunately, there is no direct evidence ever come to light to back up their claims, which is not surprising considering the secret nature of such things, the delicate situation of Latvia at the time (there were soviet bases present already), and the full occupation following in the summer of '40.
According to Raimo Heiskanen book Saadun Tiedon Mukaan (According to the info received) Finnish embassy member at Latvia, Riga, possibly it's chief, Minister Palin, was, during the Winter War, in contact with some foreign intelligence service member.
The info received was clearly get by radio intelligence service. The common language (between the source and Finns) seems to have been german. It is unlikely that the info had came from German sources, but from Latvian Defence Forces intelligence unit.
Ambassador Palin telegammed (56 telegrams between Dec-39 - March-40) to Finland for example about the troubles etc of the Red Army, Air Force and Navy at Latvia during the winter 39-40.


Regards, Juha

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Re: Deciphered Soviet messages from the Winter War

Post by Mangrove » 20 Jun 2010 17:42

First intelligence based on deciphered messages appear on Karjalan Armeija's (Kar.A) war diary on December 3rd 1939, but first quotes are from December 7th. Here are two of them.

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=1597707
Saimme 7.12 klo 14.04 seuraavan sanoman: Armeijakomentaja Meretshkoville. Puolustusasiainkomissaari ja toveri Sndanovovatkoville[?] [?] Kiviniemen suunnalla. Tilanneilmoitukset saapuneet säännöllisesti, mutta pyydän lähettämään ne vielä useammin. Toteuttakaa[?] käsky 700. (?) 8 J.V. Divisioonalle edetä Kiviniemeä kohti. Tsehidisov[?]
Soviet 7th Army received following message from 43rd Division on December 12th at 2.40 p.m: Map 1:100,000. Division troops have began the attack. 329th Infantry Regiment has taken the Southern Edge[?]. 47464 [...]

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=1597727
Saatujen tietojen mukaan sai venäl. 7. Armeija 15.12 klo 14.40 43.D:ltä m. m. seuraavan ilmoituksen: Kartta 1:100.000. Divisioonan joukot alkaneet hyökkäyksen. Klo 11.00 J. R 329 vallannut Eteläreunan. 47464. j.n.e.

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Re: Deciphered Soviet messages from the Winter War

Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Feb 2011 20:07

Juha Tompuri wrote:Hi AAA,
AAA wrote:It may be relevant - interestingly, two former Latvian army crypto specialist captain K.Porietis and warrant officer Pauls Eizenbergs claimed in their memoirs post WW-II that Latvia has broken soviet codes in the mid-30's, and were supplying radio intel to Finland during the winter war. Unfortunately, there is no direct evidence ever come to light to back up their claims, which is not surprising considering the secret nature of such things, the delicate situation of Latvia at the time (there were soviet bases present already), and the full occupation following in the summer of '40.
According to Raimo Heiskanen book Saadun Tiedon Mukaan (According to the info received) Finnish embassy member at Latvia, Riga, possibly it's chief, Minister Palin, was, during the Winter War, in contact with some foreign intelligence service member.
The info received was clearly get by radio intelligence service. The common language (between the source and Finns) seems to have been german. It is unlikely that the info had came from German sources, but from Latvian Defence Forces intelligence unit.
Ambassador Palin telegammed (56 telegrams between Dec-39 - March-40) to Finland for example about the troubles etc of the Red Army, Air Force and Navy at Latvia during the winter 39-40.
A Finnish language Latvian origin travel guide(!) to Riga/Latvia: Riika matkaopas by Andris Kolbergs mentions about the issue that Latvian Army radio intelligence officers broke Soviet coded radio messages and delivered them then to the Finns. Their superriors mostly were not aware of the work. General Krišjānis Berķis whose wife was finnish probably knew about it.
The Latvian code breaking is said to have helped Finns mostly against the 168th, 18th and 75th div North of Lake Ladoga, against 163th and 44th div at Suomussalmi-Raate region and against 54th div and Dolin ski brigade at Kuhmo region.

Regards, Juha

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