Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
CF Geust
Member
Posts: 131
Joined: 05 Sep 2006 12:48
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by CF Geust » 03 Oct 2021 11:08

Thorwald77,

could you please explain what is meant by the following figures in your post No. 56 above:

---
Escaped Germany (66,694)
Escaped Romania (3,331)
Escaped Finland (712)
---
Escaped "from where" and "to where"??

and also in the same post:
---
POWsAxis records
POW Germany 5,734
POW Romania 82
POW Finland 64
Escaped (70)
---
Escaped??

What is your source for th above mentioned numbers?

Carl

User avatar
thorwald77
Member
Posts: 521
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
Location: usa

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Oct 2021 13:41

What is your source for th above mentioned numbers?
Streit Ch. (1991). Keine Kameraden: die Wehrmacht und die sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen

СОВЕТСКИЕ ВОЕННОПЛЕННЫЕ: СКОЛЬКО ИХ БЫЛО И СКОЛЬКО ВЕРНУЛОСЬ?
ПАВЕЛ ПОЛЯН1,
The Polian article is available online, just Google it.

I have been waiting patiently all long for someone here to point out that the deserters are a included in the balance of 436,300 imprisoned and that the balance of 939,700 has already been deducted from those conscripted. Krivosheev should have deducted Pows released after July 1945 and losses in the Far East to correct the balance of 11.944 million irrecoverable losses.

Note well that the reconciliation in the 3rd. edition (2010) of Krivosheev is dated 1 July, 1945. At that time not all prisoners had been released, the details are in Polian's article. To reconcile to actual losses we need to deduct Pows released after 1 July, 1945 and losses in the Far East . The figure of 13,850 million of the Russian military archives less Pows released will be our proof of the actual losses.

Irrecoverable losses
  • Irrecoverable losses 7/45 11,944.0
    Far East 12.0
    Subtotal 11,956.0

    Pow released after 7/45 (471.0)

    Released Pows
    Golikov 2,016.0
    Filtration 349.0
    Military Archive 13,850.0

  • Pow released after 7/45 471.0
    Golikov's total (2,016.0)
    Balance @ 7/1/1945 (1,545.0)

Balance of losses
  • KIA 5,226.8
    DOW 1,102.8
    Non combat 555.5
    MIA 500.0
    Pows 3,446.6
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Convicts 557.7
    Subtotal 11,484.0

    Golikov 2,016.4
    Filtration 349.2
    Military Archive 13,849.6

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6450
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by Art » 03 Oct 2021 13:53

thorwald77 wrote:
02 Oct 2021 17:57
"Grif sekretnosti snyat", is not a reliable source
It doesn't really matter if you see it as reliable or not. The problem is that "10,781,130" is not a number of causalites in the electronc database.
Briefly, "Memorial" database containes the following principal bodies of documents in the "units records" section:
1. Lists of casuaties sumbitted by military units during the war.
2. Lists of casualies sumbitted by some of field armies after the war end (mid 1945) and covering subordinate formations and units. Which mostly overlap with 1.
3. Burial books kept at the unit level (regiments etc). Again, they mostly overlap with 1 and 2.
The database is organized in such a way that these records are lumped together and cannot be separated. The result is the collection of mostly duplicating and overlapping records. And there are also Navy's casualties which are a separate story and where the scale of duplacation is even larger. There are cases when one there are 6 or 7 records corresponding to one casualty. The bottom line is that 10.8 million search results doesn't mean 10.8 million physical casualties. What's a true number cannot be found without extensive processing of all these millions of records. A rough estimate can be produced by taking a statistical sample. Another point is that name accounting was by no means complete and missed plenty of casualties in 1941-42.

User avatar
thorwald77
Member
Posts: 521
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
Location: usa

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Oct 2021 15:43

Grif sekretnosti snyat", It doesn't really matter if you see it as reliable or not.
This is the official source that puts Soviet Pow losses at 1.283 million. No actual documents are cited to support the figures in Grif.

In the case of the Gulag statistics we have NKVD documents that are cited as sources. This is used by gullible academics in the west as a reliable source. The study Illness and Inhumanity in Stalin's Gulag by Golfo Alexopoulos details how the NKVD falsified the deaths in the Gulag.

Source A.
Details of Fronts & Fleets in Grif
  • KIA 5,184,749
    Non combat 534,273
    DOW 1,100,327
    MIA/POW 4,452,336
    Total in Grif 11,271,685
Source B.
  • Summary of Field reports 1945 in Grif
    Army 10,008,400
    DOW 1,100,000
    Navy 153,770
    Far East 12,030
    11,274,200
Source C.
Released Pows
  • Freed to 10/44 filtration (349,200)
    Total Glolikov (2,016,400)
    (2,365,600.0)
Source D. Krivosheev
  • KIA 5,187.1
    Non combat 541.9
    DOW 1,100.3
    NKVD border/Security 55.8
    MIA 500.0
    POWs 1,283.0
    Krivosheev balance 8,668.1

Source E.
Forced Labor in Germany 2,164.3
(actually Pows )

Source F.
Civilians in military 94.6

Source G.
Convicts 557.7

Summary of military losses
  • Krivosheev 8,668.4
    Forced labor in Germany 2,164.3
    Convicts 557.7
    Civilians in Military 94.6
    Pow freed to 10/44 349.0
    Pow after 10/44 2,016.0
    Archive Total 13,850.0
The Statistics of 1.283 million Pow and 2.164 million forced labor in Germany total 3.447 million. POWs released were 2.365 million. Axis records show 5.880 million captured and 70,000 escaped.
  • Pows 5,880
    Escaped (70)
    Freed Pows (2,365)
    Losses 3,445
  • Krivosheev 1,283
    Forced labor in Germany 2,164
    Losses 3,447

CF Geust
Member
Posts: 131
Joined: 05 Sep 2006 12:48
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by CF Geust » 04 Oct 2021 07:59

Thorwald77,
I do not find the following data (from your post No.56 above) in the article by Poluyan:
---
POWsAxis records
POW Germany 5,734
POW Romania 82
POW Finland 64
Escaped (70)
---
Waiting for your comments,
Carl

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6450
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by Art » 04 Oct 2021 09:28

thorwald77 wrote:
03 Oct 2021 15:43
This is the official source that puts Soviet Pow losses at 1.283 million. No actual documents are cited to support the figures in Grif.
Because it's not based on documents.
According to "Grif" the number of missing in action and POWs was 4,559,000 men. Of them 1,836,000 were repatriated to the SU, 939,700 were recovered from the occupied territories, 500,000 were estimated as unaccounted deaths. That leaves the balance of 1,283,000 POW deaths, It is clear that these are very rough estimates and they were discarded in later editions as far as I can see.

User avatar
thorwald77
Member
Posts: 521
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
Location: usa

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 04 Oct 2021 13:17

I do not find the following data (from your post No.56 above) in the article by Poluyan:
---
See pages 44 and 52 :idea:

User avatar
thorwald77
Member
Posts: 521
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
Location: usa

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 04 Oct 2021 14:02

Because it's not based on documents
.

True, the detailed data in Grif for the various fronts and fleet total 4,455,620 Pow and missing, not including 103,300 border & security troops and 32,083 civilians in the military. The data in Grif incomplete. The gap in MOD reports is explained away as 2,164,313 "forced labor in Germany"

The statistics for the various fronts and flees listed in Grif(2010 ed.) pp.336-443 add down to 4,452,336 missing and died in prison. This data is incomplete, worthless Soviet disinformation.

User avatar
thorwald77
Member
Posts: 521
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
Location: usa

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 04 Oct 2021 14:21

Another example of worthless Soviet disinformation is the statistic of 7.420 million civilians deaths in occupied territory due to "premediated extermination"

In (1,000)
  • Civilians in the military 91
    Military convicts 557
    Military deserters 376
    Pows who remained in west 180
    Militia 146
    Partisans 250
    Civilians killed 4,500
    Siege of Leningrad 658
    Bombing of Stalingrad 40
    2nd emmigration 451
    Emmigration of Germans 140
    Emmigration of Romanians 31
    7,420.0
91K Civilians in the military does not include 3,500 imprisoned.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6450
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by Art » 04 Oct 2021 19:47

Art wrote:
03 Oct 2021 13:53
The result is the collection of mostly duplicating and overlapping records. And there are also Navy's casualties which are a separate story and where the scale of duplacation is even larger. There are cases when one there are 6 or 7 records corresponding to one casualty. The bottom line is that 10.8 million search results doesn't mean 10.8 million physical casualties.
Just for illustrations.
1. On 2 May 1942 the 72 Rifle Divisions sent a list of causalities suffered on 20-30 April 1942 which included Sergey Aleskandrovich Sergeyev (b.1913) - chemist of the 133 Rifle Regiment, killed at Kolpino on 27.4.42
2. On 6 June 1942 the chief of the Baltic Fleet's organizations directorate sent a list of casualties to the Casualties Bureau of People's Commissariat for Navy. This list included Sergey Aleskandrovich Sergeyev (b.1913), chemist of the 133 Rifle Regiment/72 Rifle Division killed on 27.4.42
3. On 13 June 1942 the chief of the Baltic Fleet organizations directorate published with his letter a list of casualties of the Baltic Fleet which included Sergey Aleskandrovich Sergeyev (b.1913), chemist of the 133 Rifle Regiment/72 Rifle Division killed on 27.4.42
4. Finally, in July 1945 the HQ of the 21 Army sent a list of casualties suffered by the 72 Rifle Division during the war which included Sergey Aleskandrovich Sergeyev, chemist of the 133 Rifle Regiment, killed at Kolpino on 27.4.42

So, there are four documents, which are indexed as four different records in the database but obviously pertain to the same person.
There are cases which are less obvious and where duplication can be only inferred with certain probability.

User avatar
thorwald77
Member
Posts: 521
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
Location: usa

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 04 Oct 2021 20:45

Thanks Art for taking the time to post this information. Do we know how many records are in the Memorial database and have the duplications been removed?

My father was a combat veteran of the US 9th Army, he served from June 1945 in Europe until the end of the war and received an honorable discharge in November 1945. His unit was in the Normandy campaign and he ended the war on the Elbe where he met the Soviet forces. He passed away in 1975 and is buried in the US military cemetery in Farmingdale Long Island.

I hope that Soviet veterans receive honorable mention for their service. To consider them forced labor in Germany is an outrage.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6450
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by Art » 06 Oct 2021 13:40

I don't fully understand what the "forced labor" is about.
Anyway, "Memorial" database is a sort of salade of various ingredients. First, there are lists of casualties submitted my military units (hospitals, tribunals etc) of the Red Army, Navy, NKVD etc during and after the war. The last time I've checked there were about 10.8 million records there. It seem that the global search isn't working anymore, it least for now. Also other ingredients:
- Registry of officer casualties from the Main Cadres Directorate
- Lists of casualties in hospitals and other medical installation from the Medical Archive
- lists of casualties and death notifications from district and city military commissariats. That includes post-war "census" results from relatives of military personnel.
- registry of graves
- partial lists of deaths of POWs in captivity
- card indexes, including most importantly card index of the Navy casualties
- other stuff, including some lists of recovered POWs and missing.

All this body of records is strongly overlapping and duplicating. I didn't check the number, but that must be millions in addition to 10.8 million mentioned above. From what I remember the officer casualties registry included close to 1.3 million records, of which about 25% were redundant (duplication or non-casualties).

User avatar
thorwald77
Member
Posts: 521
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
Location: usa

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 06 Oct 2021 15:32

of which about 25% were redundant (duplication or non-casualties).

Ivan is called up in 1941 and reports to the depot in Kiev but was never inducted into a unit. He was killed or died as a prisoner of the Germans. His death is not counted as a military loss by Krivosheev, it was "forced labor in Germany" If he survived the war as a slave laborer in Germany he would have been considered a traitor or deserter by the Soviet military.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 6450
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by Art » 07 Oct 2021 09:08

I don't think that the story is relevant here. I was talking about officers casualties published in the orders of Glavupraform, GUK etc. Some of them duplicated earlier orders, and some were cancelled when the persons in question were found alive. This "overhead" is approximately 25% of the total body of records.

AriX
Member
Posts: 156
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 08:07
Location: Ukraine

Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by AriX » 13 Nov 2021 16:33

According to Krivosheev and co. the Red Army suffered 390.000 irreventible casulties during the Moscov offensive in the winter of 1941/42 while 1.3 million rifles, carbines, submachine guns were lost. That's what you should know about the reability of the soviet official numbers.

Return to “The Soviet Union at War 1917-1945”