1945 Lost German girl

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
headwest
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by headwest » 01 Mar 2022 17:31

No that it matters again, but the woman in the book, who has been shown here before, to me, looks the closest to the LGG

nose seems the same, chin, cheeks etc

ignacioosacar1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by ignacioosacar1 » 04 Mar 2022 04:07

Very good post wirklich ! Educative filming tips

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 04 Mar 2022 20:20

What was she wearing and what condition was it in?
The woman wears a dark black pullover sweater with a round collar. Very little detail can be seen. It fits at the shoulders, chest and sleeves. It is tucked into her trousers.
The right chest area shows what looks like a very small amount of dirt on it, or it could be from the way the sun shines on the shirt from her left side to right side.
Part of the shirt rolls over the waist band just above the left side adjustment strap. She turns more to the right. The sun is shining from behind now and casts a shadow line there. About 25mm behind the silver buckle there is a small, pointed piece of damaged fabric about the half size of the silver button. It hangs down there but does not touch the trousers. It casts a shadow making making the damage look larger.
Behind the waist adjustment strap, there is a long black shadow that is cast by the rear brace strap. The shadow follows the contours of the trousers. It looks like part of the shirt is torn but it is a shadow.
It is a worn sweater that has probably been hand washed, wrung out and hung up wet by the collar to dry. This will change the shape of the collar, especially if it is wool and wet.

Here is a link to a German M36 scoop-(round) neck and V neck grey sweater (Schlup Jacke) similar to what she wears. This is the closest I can find to what she wears. https://www.militarytour.com/german-wwi ... jacke.html They show a round neck version.

The elastic braces are stein Grau color on the front and white on the back. There are 2 leather attachment straps at the end of the elastic side strap. Black on the front and undyed on the back. They attach to the waist band buttons.
One of the leather straps on the left side is not buttoned to the waist band and hangs down.
The elastic straps on the left and right side have been torn from their metal adjustment slider. The causes ends to stick out. As she swings her arms walking down the road they hit the loose straps that stick out.
The rear brace that is buttoned to center of the back has 1 leather strap buttoned to the waist band. The other leather strap has been torn loose. It hangs down with a button in it.

Here is a link to braces that are similar to what she wears, the ends are not leather. https://www.epicmilitaria.com/german-st ... races.html

The trousers are high waisted and baggy. They are +++similar+++ to the Luftwaffe M43 trousers (Keil hose). There were many variants.
There are no belt loops on the front. There is a belt loop just forward of silver buckle for the left side waist adjustment strap.
The waist adjustment strap is partially undone.
There is a watch pocket with a flat button flap. 2 front (only the left side shows) and 1 rear pocket with scalloped button down flaps.
The left pocket flap is open and the button shows. Just above the button there is a metal chain ring sown to the fabric. The watch pocket has a chain ring sown to the fabric above it on the right side.
The waist band is buttoned and the button shows.
The fly is pulled to the left. This makes it look like it may be open, but no buttons show. There should be 4-5 buttons depending on the variant. (on one video it looks like there may be 2 bottom buttons showing). The right side of the fly should follow the seam that goes straight down from the waist band. (My 1961 Bundeswehr wool trousers have straight legs and are more baggy. I can make the fly look similar to the way hers looks. Contrary to what people believe, braces make the trousers more comfortable to wear. You can leave the side adjustment straps looser.
Her trousers are heavy and sag. They are made of heavy wool and being baggy use a lot more material. To wear the trousers where they should be the side adjustment straps need to be tightened and or the braces need to be worn.
This would make the fit of her trousers the perfect fit. They are one size up and one size down adjustable. The length fits too.
There are 2 small tears on the left leg just above the knee. One is on the front side of the leg seam and the other is on back side of the seam. There is a small amount of grass on the leg.
The fly buttons show on this man https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn1003844 1:19:27:00.

Trouser variant links https://militariaplaza.nl/uniforms/luft ... e-1-detail
https://www.lux-military-antiques.com/e ... ager-1.htm
https://www.lux-military-antiques.com/e ... users-.htm

Ankle boots or shoes?
What she wears looks more like ankle boots. Something like these. Round toe with one single piece of leather for the sole, to cut cost. Perfect for a noncombatant.
https://mwcwatches.com/products/ww2-pat ... acht-boots
Or these if you prefer shoes.
https://www.wehrmacht.es/en/female-unif ... shoes.html

The white handkerchief/cloth.
It was hers. Why would it not be? She had the presence of mind to carry a red DAF book with a white Identity card/paper/papers or photo sticking out 5mm at the top of it and money.
Too many soldiers and hundreds of civilians can be seen on Haglund's other videos with white handkerchiefs/cloths for her to not have one too.

An item that would identify her as military is what she does not carry. An Erkennungsmarke, the German identity disk.
I have book marked (the time on the film footage) of many soldiers with an EK in the column she was supposed to be in.

German soldiers were not required to carry DAF books.
But if she was from the Sudetenland (close to home), she may have had hers with her if she were military.
Sudetenland DAF book link
https://www.privatecollections.ca/WW2-g ... any-stamps

The man on this link time 1:18:39:09 has a red identity book and card like the womans has. Like her he has no EK. https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn1003844

Non Germans had identity books/DAF books too. This is hard to read. It looks like a red Identity card with picture for a female from "Polin" that is listed as an "Arbiterin". Daf books did not have a picture of the holder in them. https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... 8730771360

Copy of a Flakwaffenhelferinnen book and card https://www.wehrmacht.es/en/soldier-doc ... innen.html

According to this link late in the war some DAF workers were trained for duty in Flak units.
https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Wor ... eitsfront/

This is what I see. That means me. Other people will see things differently.

No stone should be left unturned.

Leave no one behind.

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Annelie
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Annelie » 05 Mar 2022 14:44

Now that is one interesting, useful and informative post.

Thank you!

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 06 Mar 2022 08:54

Haglund's and his cameraman's cameras.
Someone asked about the cameras he and his crew used.
Here are some of the cameras they had access to.
This film footage has a recorded soundtrack.
At 4:17 the Capt. hands his camera to his cameraman. The cameraman seen latter at 4:53,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwy8SzVmWGc
and here too.
https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn1002547 1:51:10:21 1:50:59:10

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 06 Mar 2022 18:19

Hello, the cameramen who were in that area were 4, only Haglund is identified (in the photo below on the left) the other who accompanies him is identified as Leslie although his identification can not be found anywhere (in the photo above on the right) only his X-74 or X-78 ID card, this cameraman was behind Haglund when he was filming LGG, he was filming the prisoners sitting on the side of the road so I think he MAY have filmed something from LGG and is still lost over there..
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ignacioosacar1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by ignacioosacar1 » 07 Mar 2022 21:09

Hello wirklich

Very interesting data

So you are conclusive that the trousers are hers ? At least, her right size. I always believed that they were too tight fitting to be her own. Anyway, regulation clothing and specially shoes must have been very chaotic by 1945.

Cheers all !

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 08 Mar 2022 10:29

Hello
Everyone sees things differently, (which is a good thing) but I am going to guess the reason they look tight to you is because the left adjustment strap is let out almost all the way?
I think they are a good size for her.
But they sag and should be pulled up.
While she is walking down the road, it looks like the top of the waist band on her right side is even with the top of her hip bone.
No details of the right-side adjustment strap can be seen. The left side adjustment strap is let out almost all the way. This allows the trousers to sag and look a little too tight. Her hips hold the trousers up.
Below the waist band these trousers are very baggy.
The trousers have a high waist and should be over her hip bones where her waist is narrower. It is easy to see how narrow her waist is because the sweater is a good fit.
If they were up that high, the side adjustments straps would have to be tightened more. Or she would have to pull the braces up. She can wear them 1 size up or down by wearing braces. The braces are damaged.

https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/ ... plus/59098 This is a link that shows a woman In Finland wearing Bundeswehr trousers with braces. It is the best example of a woman wearing high waisted military trousers and braces that I can think of right now. Notice how high the waist is over her hip bones. These don't have side adjustment straps and are made with a narrow waist.

https://www.varusteleka.com/en/search/search?q=helmet Because people off the forum will see the helmet she is wearing, (and I don't want someone to be called a Nazi) I will add this. The helmet she wears is from WW1.
Click on all the German style helmets listed, and this will explain the helmets connection with Finland.

https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/low-mid-vs-high-rise/ This is a link that shows several black and white pictures of civilian men in the 1930's. They wear high rise/high waist trousers with belts or braces. Not all trousers had the same rise/high waist.

You are correct about the logistics; it would have been a nightmare for Germany to supply all the fronts they were fighting on.

I think what she wears fits well. The fact that it fits well is not proof that it is hers. She wears a German uniform but has no military ID disk. The only form of identification she has is a civilian DAF book with what looks like a card sticking out the top of it about 5mm in her hands. It is all circumstantial evidence.

Someone needs to make an enhanced picture of her footwear like was done with what she held in her hands. It is part of the puzzle.
I know people will see things differently, I will not be offended. They only way for this mystery to be solved is for more people to keep looking for clues.

We should all be grateful we were not 20 years old in 1939. Our fate could have been the same as theirs.
Cheers

ignacioosacar1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by ignacioosacar1 » 08 Mar 2022 23:48

Hello,

I have not seen LGG using any footwear. The caption goes down to her ankles when she is seen walking towards the camera and when she is sitting apparently she is barefooted , but again the camera does not go down enough. I have seen once, and I do not remember where, this film in which she is wearing some sort of grey footwear, but it is a fraction of a second and I would not be surprised if someone, for some reason, digitally added this.

Cheers!

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 09 Mar 2022 01:15

hello,
At the beginning of the original filming you can see LGG wearing his boots, at the end of LGG's filming you can see that he has taken them off to have a break from his feet, it's something I see in all the filming of the Helferinnen that is remove the boots later since it bothers you to walk

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in this picture you can see better his boots
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wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 09 Mar 2022 10:16

CarlosXander wrote:
09 Mar 2022 01:15
hello,
At the beginning of the original filming you can see LGG wearing his boots, at the end of LGG's filming you can see that he has taken them off to have a break from his feet, it's something I see in all the filming of the Helferinnen that is remove the boots later since it bothers you to walk

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in this picture you can see better his boots
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Thank you for the picture.

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 09 Mar 2022 19:31

CarlosXander wrote:
19 Feb 2022 16:53
my theory I keep insisting that in this part of the filming it is LGG with her boyfriend/husband or lover, it is her for me since she has her hair tied, it is true that it is not the clothes that we see later but it is clear that the clothes that alarece in the row is not hers and apart from the older woman she is the only woman who appears in the group who were later beaten and killed, it is my theory
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Hello
1. Is there a way to slow down the loop speed on the video?
2. Can you get a stop frame of their face when they are looking up?
3. can you get a stop frame that shows as much of their body and boots as possible?
The first time I saw this I thought the hair looks more feminine.
It looks like there is more on the crown and the side looks like it is pulled up and back.

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 09 Mar 2022 19:43

CarlosXander wrote:
09 Mar 2022 01:15
hello,
At the beginning of the original filming you can see LGG wearing his boots, at the end of LGG's filming you can see that he has taken them off to have a break from his feet, it's something I see in all the filming of the Helferinnen that is remove the boots later since it bothers you to walk

Image
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in this picture you can see better his boots
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Thank you for the pictures Carlos.
She wears something similar to these ankle boots
https://mwcwatches.com/products/ww2-pat ... acht-boots

ignacioosacar1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by ignacioosacar1 » 09 Mar 2022 23:39

Hello Forum

Very good discovery after so many years

At least for me !

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 12 Mar 2022 00:09

hello wirklich
I can't get this forum to play the GIF in this post, I sent you the link you asked for as slowly as I could
regards

https://imgur.com/l5Re3Sa

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