Some RADwJ items

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 25 Nov 2006 15:00

Excellent collection Vikki :D I have some Bizirk patches too but not as many as you. Different ones from the same old LS4's and XVII rarely pop up over here but I will keep looking.

I have photos of a complete RADwJ uniform sent to me by a private collector and I see that the fabric of your jacket (seems to be a pre-war model) differs to his, a war time model. His is made from slightly coarser worsted wool. I also have photos of the jacket which goes with the pants, cut in the M44 style. I cannot post the photos unless I have permission from their owners, so for now they have to remain private viewing.

You may need to re-post some of your photos as I cant see them :-(

As for fake patches, what do you think of this one seen on eBay 6 months ago, being sold as 'genuine'?
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Michael Jonas
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Post by Michael Jonas » 25 Nov 2006 17:06

Hi

in my opinion - this is a fake - the brown material in the middle is the same as at the edge. The ears are woven together. This is a bad fake.

Michael

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 25 Nov 2006 19:25

Ancasta and Michael,

Thanks, it's always a pleasure to share bits of my collection with others who are interested and knowledgeable. I'll try to repost those pictures that didn't show up--they were some of the most interesting pieces, but as I said, I've been having computer problems lately.

Michael Jonas wrote:Here are the fact of LS 4 - Lagerschule 4
There was a LS 4 !! It was in "Illertissen" in Bezirk XIII Bayern from 1939 - 1941.
OK, there are too many on the market, but I have this also in my collection since 1991 - and my example is not a fake - its an unused real thing.
I think it's like US Comics - a warehouse found after many years.
I named this an unused "Kammerstück".
Michael, I wasn't doubting that there was a Lagerschule 4, only stating that the silver wire LS 4 patches that have shown up in great numbers here in the US in the last 8 or 10 years or so are bad. I've no doubt that yours may be real, especially since it was purchased so long ago. And I'm also well aware of the "warehouse" theory of items that flood the market, and believe that in some cases it may hold true. But these patches are bad based on their own characteristics, even apart from the number of them that have appeared. Both their material and composition are glaringly different not only from male RAD silver wire patches, but also from the standard quality of original silver wire insignia from the period.

The metallic wire on original Third Reich "flatwire" insignia is actually composed of tiny aluminum "ribbons" wrapped around a thread. The wire on these copies is too, but when examined under a loup, the "ribbons" covering the thread are much wider, giving the wire itself, and the overall design, a much coarser appearance (because the thicker wire can't be woven as tightly as the thinner antique wire). In addition, the background material of these patches is inconsistent with original Third Reich patch backgrounds. Unlike original RADwJ and other patches, whose backgrounds are virtually always woven of a single color for both warp and weft, the repro insignia have a two-color background (black and brown, in the case of these RADwJ patches). This, and the coarser thread and weave of even the background of the patches, gives them a much coarser appearance than real ones. In the case of uncut patches, this can be easily felt in the stiffness of the excess material around the design when compared to an uncut original.

These same features--coarseness of thread and weave, and two-coloured background--also hold true for the non-metallic "non-commissioned" XXVIII patches I referenced, as well as other Third Reich woven insignia.

Perhaps the most telling point is that these traits are clearly shown in patches produced and sold expressly as modern reproductions, on everything from Army officers' breast eagles to Afrikakorps hat eagles. The difference is clear on all of these examples, when compared to an original.

Bezirk XXX

There was a Bezirk XXX and a Bezirk XXXI. I will describe the story and the leaders in my book about the RADwJ.
I have the original instructions, exact date a.s.o.
But for collectors: a patch of XXX or XXXI is extremly rare.
Thanks for the information! I checked my memory before I wrote with Angolia's Labor Organizations of the Reich, which also lists 29 Bezirke. But as it was published in 1999, maybe you have additional information? I look forward to publication of your book!

Best,
~Vikki

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Matt Gibbs
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Post by Matt Gibbs » 25 Nov 2006 20:37

The machine stitching on that badge is really lacking in attention to detail.
regards
Matt Gibbs

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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 26 Nov 2006 00:54

I took one look at that patch and thought 'eurgh, baaad copy'. For a start the (poorly executed) embroidery is a giveaway - Bizirk patches are BeVo woven. Also the background is cotton. It could be a left-over from a WW2 TV production or stage play. Its just a shame its being touted as an original but I thought it would be a good example to show the interested readers on here what is appearing out there. One of my Bizirk patches is dirty with age but with signs of a lot of wear. Would love to clean it but I wont for obvious reasons!

I have what I assumed to be an LS4 patch copy because its ever so slightly smaller than my originals. Vikki above also makes a very important about them, especially about the silver threads. I shall be backing up her comments with some photos. Its just odd none of the other Lager Schule patches are out there. When I get round to it I'll post some pics of the patches.

Edited due to terrible syntax - I wrote the original post when tired. Doh!
Last edited by ancasta on 26 Nov 2006 17:10, edited 1 time in total.

StephanieSklar
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Post by StephanieSklar » 26 Nov 2006 15:08

Hi Michael!

for one I can't wait to see your book!

Nice pics you all!

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Post by StephanieSklar » 26 Nov 2006 15:15

I am curious!

I noticed in the 08 hans Z. photo of the fraulein w/the children in a circle (looks like a kindergarden group) in the back of the circle there is a little boy who does seem like a mulatto (mixed black-white heritage).

I know that there were a few black children here and there in Germany at the time, so perhaps here is a pic of one? Unless it is the shade of the tree over him that makes it darker. He has very curly black hair though (all the kinder on the pics are cute! )

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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 26 Nov 2006 17:55

Compare and contrast time. The LS4 patch was the first thing I ever bough for collecting and my lack of experience showed. The following photos will show what to look for.
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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 26 Nov 2006 18:31

Back views and close ups. Apologies about the quality but the system kept changing its mind about what size of photo I could post :roll: One thought that has struck me is why have I and others not seen patches of any of the other LS units. And why is the LS4 such a mass produced copy? :idea: [spacer]
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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 27 Nov 2006 02:26

Great photo comparison, Ancasta! It illustrates my points above exactly.

In addition to the comparative coarseness of the thread on the reproduction, at the bottom cut edge of it you can just see a fringe of the black threads that make up the black and brown material of the area around the design.
ancasta wrote: One thought that has struck me is why have I and others not seen patches of any of the other LS units. And why is the LS4 such a mass produced copy? :idea: [spacer]
The patches are machine woven, and for whoever went to the trouble and expense to set up the weaving, it would make sense to make a lot of them, rather than changing the machine to make small quantities of several different patches. Thus the flood on the market.

Best,
~Vikki

Michael Jonas
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Post by Michael Jonas » 27 Nov 2006 09:51

Hi StephanieSklar,

there is nothing like a mulatto in Hans Retzlaff pictures - these pictures are the highest level of propaganda - all children are typical aryans as a example for the future of the nordic race . What you see are only shadows, a tree beyond.

A speculation: How many fake LS4 patches existing in the World?
I know more than 20 in collections in Germany. And more than 20 as an offer for sale by professional dealers.
I have seen them since 1994? near 1995?

Greetings
Michael

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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 27 Nov 2006 17:33

Here is another one made by the same people who made the post-war patches. Again you will note the similarity to the above fake LS4 patch. This patch was listed as '100% genuine'. Anyone got a genuine LS4 patch they can post on here?
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Klara Hoffman
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Great Photos

Post by Klara Hoffman » 28 Nov 2006 18:35

Heimatschuss

Wonderful photo!

I am a hoping to re enact the RADwJ next year at Beltring, after doing many years of BDM impression, so this has been a big inspiration for me to see the RADwJ uniform in colour.

I have the book in question 'Arbeitsmaiden am Werk' (Service Maids at Work) by Hans Retzlaff but all the pictures are in B&W. I am new to the forum so when I can work out how to upload photos I will scan the book.

Klara

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 28 Nov 2006 23:14

Here's a respost of the scans that disappeared:
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Matt Gibbs
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Post by Matt Gibbs » 29 Nov 2006 04:00

Love the stickpin versions of the hat badge. Really some nice stuff coming out of the woodwork here.

Klara, if you want a RADwJ ID for Beltring I can have a go at scanning and playing with mine, to see if I can kind of create a blank for you. Afraid it will not be perfect for you tho.
ttfn
Matt Gibbs

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