At what point did Germany lose WW2?

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Boby
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Boby » 11 Nov 2020 12:51

Without romania, from where would germany take the millions of oil tons needed?

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Beteigeuze
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Beteigeuze » 11 Nov 2020 18:34

ljadw wrote:
11 Nov 2020 12:33
What Hitler told Mannerheim was nonsense : the importance of the Romanian oil for Germany was very limited .Besides, Germany was already defeated BEFORE it lost the Romanian oil .
I'm talking about the east front. If we look at the whole picture and for all the time Germany lost the War because Hitler did not want to attack the British Isles. He was immensely romantic...
If the Western allies were able to land in Normandy in D-Day , i do not see why the Germans could not in 1940 after destroying a brick of 300,000 Britons in Dunkirk. They only need a minimum of time to build the amphibious and minimal warships to seal the straits. Instead he sent Rudolph Ηess. The soul of Germany. But it was clear that the British would never stop fighting as they knew the United States was on their side forever, not since 1941.
Boby wrote:
11 Nov 2020 12:51
Without romania, from where would germany take the millions of oil tons needed?
Yes thats right! From nowhere! Everything was judged there.
Hitler's real obsession with Romanian oil had a realistic basis and his psychological obsession with lebensraum turned the war to the East.
Germany lost the war at Lebensraum. And for that exactly. For the eastern Lebensraum. Because of Hitler's obsession with eastern Lebensraum. And his real fear for Romania's oil made him rush. No need to attack east at that time. But after the conquest of Britain. In December 1940, World War II seemed to be coming to an end.
France had been conquered, the Soviet Union was an ally of Nazi Germany, the United States was watching what was happening in Europe since its transatlantic isolation, and Britain's lone struggle seemed inevitable to end sooner or later with its capitulation.
If Hitler this moment had conquered England, he would have cut off America, which could not bomb the industrial cities of the United Free Europe. After that he would have all the time to attack the Soviet Union after giving time to the war industry to properly prepare the peoples of Europe for this attack.
Again, he must not attack at the east for Lebensraum alone and only with Germans. Can one mention the forces of the peoples of free Europe who took part in Operation Barbarossa? How many Norwegians? How many Italians? How many Spaniards? How many Croats? How many Finns? How many Serbs? How many Greeks? How many French? How many Dutch? How many Belgians? How many Portuguese? How many Romanians? etc.....The numbers when Operation Barbarossa began are ridiculous and only the Germans were fighting in the east. Big countries like France and Spain normally had to send 1 million each ... since the European arms industry was equipping them. It is easy to say that Germany and consequently Europe will win the war.
This plan has two vulnerabilities.
1.How could one trust Stalin and the Soviets and turn all forces into the first phase west. I believe that Stalin would never dare to attack first because of the terror of the Third Reich. This, of course, carries the risk that if Hitler takes it, he will win the war. But imagine the magnitude of the risk that all German forces were on the British Isles and fighting there and being attacked from the east .... This had to be resolved in some way and not just by written agreements with the Soviets. All the peoples of Europe had to send forces to guard the eastern borders.
2.Τhe British would continue the war from America even if they lost the islands. This is not important because they could do nothing. Unless American scientists find nuclear weapons before European scientists.

Sorry about my bad english and i hope everyone understands exactly how this War was won as early as 1940.
The final and thousand years Victory was waiting for Adolf in the British Isles and not in eastern Lebensraum

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 11 Nov 2020 18:49

Boby wrote:
11 Nov 2020 12:51
Without romania, from where would germany take the millions of oil tons needed?
From Germany itself, most oil came from Germany .
1940
Home crude : 1,465 million ton
Home synthetic : 3,35 million ton
Import :2,075 million ton
1941 :
Crude : 1,56 million
Synthetic :4,11 million
Import : 2,8 million
1942 :
Crude : 1,7 million
Synthetic : 4,9 million
Import : 2,36 million
1943 :
Crude : 1,8 million
Synthetic :5,75 million
Import :2,77 million
1944 :
Crude : 1,68
Synthetic :3,96
Import : 0,96

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Beteigeuze
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Beteigeuze » 11 Nov 2020 19:01

Surprisingly, the way of victory is described in the Norwegian version of the SS song that you mention in England and not in the German version who speaks for Volga.

German SS The song of defeat
SS marschiert in Feindesland
Und singt ein Teufelslied
Ein Schütze steht am Wolgastrand
Und leise summt er mit
Wir pfeifen auf Unten und Oben
Und uns kann die ganze Welt
Verfluchen oder auch loben
Grad wie es ihnen gefällt
Wo wir sind da geht's immer vorwärts
Und der Teufel der lacht nur dazu!
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
Wir kämpfen für Deutschland
Wir kämpfen für Hitler
Der Rote kommt nie mehr zur Ruh'
Wir kämpften schon in mancher Schlacht
In Nord, Süd, Ost und West
Und stehen nun zum Kampf bereit
Gegen die rote Pest
SS wird nicht ruh'n wir vernichten
Bis niemand mehr stört…

Norwegian SS The song of Victory
På vikingtog til fremmed land dro menn av
Nordisk ætt,
På kongeskip sto mann ved mann
Av Hirden kamp beredt.
Til Grønland og Island og Hjaltland,
Gikk ferden på langskip mot vest,
I Frankrike, i Irland og England,
Var nordmannen ubuden gjest.
Ja, fienden de måtte vike,
Selv paven han tapte sin makt,
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha – ha.
For til vern om det stornorske riket
Stod trofaste Hirdmenn på vakt.
Nå reiser vi en Hird påny
Av Vidkun Quislings menn.
Og her i gamle Oslo by
Står Vikingkorpset frem.
Se baunene lyser fra fjellet
Bærer bud om den nye tid.
Og baunenes lys skal fortelle
Om Hirdmenn som fylkes til strid.
Da fienden atter skal vike
Og pampene tape sin makt,
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha – ha.
For til vern om det stornorske riket
Står trofaste Hirdmenn på vakt.


ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 11 Nov 2020 19:05

Beteigeuze wrote:
11 Nov 2020 18:34
ljadw wrote:
11 Nov 2020 12:33
What Hitler told Mannerheim was nonsense : the importance of the Romanian oil for Germany was very limited .Besides, Germany was already defeated BEFORE it lost the Romanian oil .
I'm talking about the east front. If we look at the whole picture and for all the time Germany lost the War because Hitler did not want to attack the British Isles. He was immensely romantic...
If the Western allies were able to land in Normandy in D-Day , i do not see why the Germans could not in 1940 after destroying a brick of 300,000 Britons in Dunkirk. They only need a minimum of time to build the amphibious and minimal warships to seal the straits. Instead he sent Rudolph Ηess. The soul of Germany. But it was clear that the British would never stop fighting as they knew the United States was on their side forever, not since 1941.
Boby wrote:
11 Nov 2020 12:51
Without romania, from where would germany take the millions of oil tons needed?
Yes thats right! From nowhere! Everything was judged there.
Hitler's real obsession with Romanian oil had a realistic basis and his psychological obsession with lebensraum turned the war to the East.
Germany lost the war at Lebensraum. And for that exactly. For the eastern Lebensraum. Because of Hitler's obsession with eastern Lebensraum. And his real fear for Romania's oil made him rush. No need to attack east at that time. But after the conquest of Britain. In December 1940, World War II seemed to be coming to an end.
France had been conquered, the Soviet Union was an ally of Nazi Germany, the United States was watching what was happening in Europe since its transatlantic isolation, and Britain's lone struggle seemed inevitable to end sooner or later with its capitulation.
If Hitler this moment had conquered England, he would have cut off America, which could not bomb the industrial cities of the United Free Europe. After that he would have all the time to attack the Soviet Union after giving time to the war industry to properly prepare the peoples of Europe for this attack.
Again, he must not attack at the east for Lebensraum alone and only with Germans. Can one mention the forces of the peoples of free Europe who took part in Operation Barbarossa? How many Norwegians? How many Italians? How many Spaniards? How many Croats? How many Finns? How many Serbs? How many Greeks? How many French? How many Dutch? How many Belgians? How many Portuguese? How many Romanians? etc.....The numbers when Operation Barbarossa began are ridiculous and only the Germans were fighting in the east. Big countries like France and Spain normally had to send 1 million each ... since the European arms industry was equipping them. It is easy to say that Germany and consequently Europe will win the war.
This plan has two vulnerabilities.
1.How could one trust Stalin and the Soviets and turn all forces into the first phase west. I believe that Stalin would never dare to attack first because of the terror of the Third Reich. This, of course, carries the risk that if Hitler takes it, he will win the war. But imagine the magnitude of the risk that all German forces were on the British Isles and fighting there and being attacked from the east .... This had to be resolved in some way and not just by written agreements with the Soviets. All the peoples of Europe had to send forces to guard the eastern borders.
2.Τhe British would continue the war from America even if they lost the islands. This is not important because they could do nothing. Unless American scientists find nuclear weapons before European scientists.

Sorry about my bad english and i hope everyone understands exactly how this War was won as early as 1940.
The final and thousand years Victory was waiting for Adolf in the British Isles and not in eastern Lebensraum
1 Hitler COULD NOT invade Britain . This has been discussed and proved on this forum .
2 Germany had already lost the war in July 1940 !
3 There were not 300000 British soldiers at Dunkirk ,but 198000,the other 140000 were mainly French .
4 Lebensraum had nothing to do with Barbarossa and with WWII.
5 More or less non German forces for Barbarossa would have made no difference : only Finnish and Romanian forces and a few Hungarians ad Slovaks took part in the Summer of 1941.
6 American '' scientists'' ( it was not a question of scientists )were a light
year farther than the Germans in the production of the A Bomb .
7 That France and Spain should participate on Barbarossa with each 1 million men, is laughable .
Besides, the Germans could even not supply and equip their 3 million men that started Barbarossa, where should they get the weapons for 1 million French and 1 million Spaniards ?

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 11 Nov 2020 19:23

Beteigeuze wrote:
11 Nov 2020 11:51
After Moscow, the Germans could not win. After Stalingrad, they could not draw. After Kursk it was a matter of time before they lost. The only serious possibility for the Germans was Moscow. Because Moscow was important not from a political point of view but mainly from a military one. All the branches of the railway ended in Moscow. The Soviets could not move an army quickly if they lost Moscow.....
I not understand why so much persons was write same nonsense again and again and again.

Boby
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Boby » 11 Nov 2020 19:26

ljadw wrote:
11 Nov 2020 18:49
Boby wrote:
11 Nov 2020 12:51
Without romania, from where would germany take the millions of oil tons needed?
From Germany itself, most oil came from Germany .
According to your data, imports were 2,2 mill. average during war. Even with home production, how germany could do without this? If it was not needed, then why was importing oil?

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Beteigeuze
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Beteigeuze » 11 Nov 2020 21:02

ljadw wrote:
11 Nov 2020 19:05

1 Hitler COULD NOT invade Britain . This has been discussed and proved on this forum .
2 Germany had already lost the war in July 1940 !
3 There were not 300000 British soldiers at Dunkirk ,but 198000,the other 140000 were mainly French .
4 Lebensraum had nothing to do with Barbarossa and with WWII.
5 More or less non German forces for Barbarossa would have made no difference : only Finnish and Romanian forces and a few Hungarians ad Slovaks took part in the Summer of 1941.
6 American '' scientists'' ( it was not a question of scientists )were a light
year farther than the Germans in the production of the A Bomb .
7 That France and Spain should participate on Barbarossa with each 1 million men, is laughable .
Besides, the Germans could even not supply and equip their 3 million men that started Barbarossa, where should they get the weapons for 1 million French and 1 million Spaniards ?
1. Hitler could easily conquer the British Isles with less than half the forces he used on the eastern front. After England Ireland and then Iceland.
2. Germany had won the war since May 1940
3. If Gunderian prevented the escape, the British had no other such capable troops on the island. But even if he let them go, he could conquer them immediately afterwards
4. The eastern front was Hitler's obsession with Lebensraum
5. Only Germans fought finally in the east. The numbers of his allies is rediculous.
6. Germans scientints could find atomic bomb first before americans.
7. Operation Barbarossa was to begin years after the occupation of England. When England fell, the Americans would not be able to strike and bomb Germany's war industry in Europe, just as the Europeans could not strike America. Without England the war would end automatically. Soon after, Hitler had to wait as long as it took for the United Europe army to be equipped. Millions of French, British, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Norwegians would be equipped and play a leading role in the final phase of the war. The dissolution of the Soviet Union. The time the Soviets would have to prepare would not matter because the European war industry would be much better. So he just had to wait.

But Hitler was in love with the British Εmpire......and as i say before sent the soul of 3rd Reich, the martyr Rudolf Hess for peace...
In short, Hitler had won since May 1940 the war in the whole world but he did not want his victory without the British Empire free with him.
He even start the early barbarossa operation to impress the British.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 11 Nov 2020 21:52

No one said that it was not needed, but it has been said that without the Romanian oil,Germany could not continue the war . And,this is not true .
The main point is that more or less oil were not deciding for Germany in WWII ,neither for the SU .The production was not deciding, what was more important was the need ,and the need was fluctuating from year to year .
The oil production (including import ) was 8,35 million ton in 1939
In 1940,it was 6,88 million with a consumption of 5,85 million .And 1940 was Germany's best year,or better,only good year .
In 1941 production 8,48 million and consumption 7,3 million .But still Barbarossa failed.But not because of a shortage of oil .
1942 production 8,96,consumption 8,46. Not a good year for Germany .
1943 production 10,5 million,consumption 6,9 million . A very bad year for Germany .
1944 : production 6,5 million .
More oil did not mean more successes,less oil did not mean less successes,more defeats .
The role of oil in WWII has been exaggerated by ''today's '' historians : the USSR won with an oil production of 60 % of the prewar production .
The German oil production in 1943 was 2,15 million higher than in 1939, but 1943 was the year of Stalingrad .
The aviation oil consumption was more than the double in 1943 of 1940 (1,8 million against 0,86 million ) but this did not prevent the destruction of Hamburg in 1943 .
About the Romanian oil production ( not all imports were Romanian oil ) and not all imports from Romania were used for Barbarossa : Barbarossa failed WITH an import of 2,8 million. It would also have failed WITHOUT this import .Romanian oil exports to Germany in 1941 were 1,6 million ton,less than 20 % of the total .
The amount of oil that was consumed in Barbarossa (June-October 1941 ) had no influence on the outcome of Barbarossa .
Some WM apologists are arguing : give the Ostheer more oil,and they would have won . This is totally wrong,as it would be wrong to say : give the Red Army more oil and they would be in Berlin in May 1942 .
What would have happen if Barbarossa started without Romanian oil ? (And we do not know how many Romanian oil was used for Barbarossa ) ?

If possible ( and this did not only depend on the possibility of a higher production,or the possibility to use the stocks, it was also depending on transport possibilities ) ,more German oil would be used .
If not, the Ostheer would use less oil .
Was it possible to use more German oil ? The German production was in 1941 5,68 million;the imports ( a big part from the USSR ) were 2,8 million .
The imports went up by 730000,the production by 920000,the consumption by 1,45 million .
It would be possible to consume more in the east and less elsewhere .
And, the Germans could always use their stocks or decrease the part that was going to the civilians/the economy .
Imports were in 1940 30% of the total,in 1941 33 %,in 1942 :27 % ,in 1943 25 %
The Germans failed with the Romanian oil, thus the question :how could they do without this oil,is wrong and loaded .
Even if Germany had in 1941 not 8,5 million ton of oil, but 85 million ton,they would still have failed in the Summer of 1941 .
the more oil Germany had, the worse its situation became .

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ljadw » 11 Nov 2020 21:57

Beteigeuze wrote:
11 Nov 2020 21:02
ljadw wrote:
11 Nov 2020 19:05

1 Hitler COULD NOT invade Britain . This has been discussed and proved on this forum .
2 Germany had already lost the war in July 1940 !
3 There were not 300000 British soldiers at Dunkirk ,but 198000,the other 140000 were mainly French .
4 Lebensraum had nothing to do with Barbarossa and with WWII.
5 More or less non German forces for Barbarossa would have made no difference : only Finnish and Romanian forces and a few Hungarians ad Slovaks took part in the Summer of 1941.
6 American '' scientists'' ( it was not a question of scientists )were a light
year farther than the Germans in the production of the A Bomb .
7 That France and Spain should participate on Barbarossa with each 1 million men, is laughable .
Besides, the Germans could even not supply and equip their 3 million men that started Barbarossa, where should they get the weapons for 1 million French and 1 million Spaniards ?
1. Hitler could easily conquer the British Isles with less than half the forces he used on the eastern front. After England Ireland and then Iceland.
2. Germany had won the war since May 1940
3. If Gunderian prevented the escape, the British had no other such capable troops on the island. But even if he let them go, he could conquer them immediately afterwards
4. The eastern front was Hitler's obsession with Lebensraum
5. Only Germans fought finally in the east. The numbers of his allies is rediculous.
6. Germans scientints could find atomic bomb first before americans.
7. Operation Barbarossa was to begin years after the occupation of England. When England fell, the Americans would not be able to strike and bomb Germany's war industry in Europe, just as the Europeans could not strike America. Without England the war would end automatically. Soon after, Hitler had to wait as long as it took for the United Europe army to be equipped. Millions of French, British, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Norwegians would be equipped and play a leading role in the final phase of the war. The dissolution of the Soviet Union. The time the Soviets would have to prepare would not matter because the European war industry would be much better. So he just had to wait.

But Hitler was in love with the British Εmpire......and as i say before sent the soul of 3rd Reich, the martyr Rudolf Hess for peace...
In short, Hitler had won since May 1940 the war in the whole world but he did not want his victory without the British Empire free with him.
He even start the early barbarossa operation to impress the British.
Only two points : The British Home Forces were stronger in 1940 than the meagre forces the Germans could debark ( a maximum of a division the first day ) .
: there were no millions of non German volunteers willing to risk their lives in the east for the German occupiers .

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by LineDoggie » 12 Nov 2020 03:10

Beteigeuze wrote:
11 Nov 2020 21:02

1. Hitler could easily conquer the British Isles with less than half the forces he used on the eastern front. After England Ireland and then Iceland.
And HOW does hitler get across the English Channel without Air Superiority and with the Royal Navy Home fleet still existing?
Beteigeuze wrote:
11 Nov 2020 21:02
2. Germany had won the war since May 1940
3. If Gunderian prevented the escape, the British had no other such capable troops on the island. But even if he let them go, he could conquer them immediately afterwards
AGAIN Fantasy not reality


4
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Beteigeuze
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Beteigeuze » 12 Nov 2020 17:13

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
11 Nov 2020 19:23
I not understand why so much persons was write same nonsense again and again and again.
I do not think this opinion is nonsense but the reality. That's the reason many say it!
ljadw wrote:
11 Nov 2020 21:57
Only two points : The British Home Forces were stronger in 1940 than the meagre forces the Germans could debark ( a maximum of a division the first day ) .
: there were no millions of non German volunteers willing to risk their lives in the east for the German occupiers .
This would be the first day and as time went on the European liberation forces of the British Isles would become stronger and stronger until the final domination. I think they would grow up immediately. Indeed, many European countries did not want to live in freedom, reminding young children who do not want to be suspended by their parents. The even better rapists who loved their rapists.
Finally Germany would tell all European peoples the truth. Everyone in the end would gladly accept their FREEDOM
I do not believe that there was a country that did not want to fight with all its might for the supremacy of the third Reich.
The attack on the British Isles would not initially be led by German but by Norwegian, Danish and Dutch troops in honor of the Great Harald.
Τhe invasion of the East after the conquest of England after all the fire had been extinguished throughout the European continent and the enemies would now be on the other side of the ocean would lead millions of French in honor of Napoleon the Great
LineDoggie wrote:
12 Nov 2020 03:10
Beteigeuze wrote:
11 Nov 2020 21:02

1. Hitler could easily conquer the British Isles with less than half the forces he used on the eastern front. After England Ireland and then Iceland.
And HOW does hitler get across the English Channel without Air Superiority and with the Royal Navy Home fleet still existing?
Beteigeuze wrote:
11 Nov 2020 21:02
2. Germany had won the war since May 1940
3. If Gunderian prevented the escape, the British had no other such capable troops on the island. But even if he let them go, he could conquer them immediately afterwards
AGAIN Fantasy not reality


4
Hitler did not need to build new ships to landing on the British Isles.
He would use the fleet he already had, in addition to the large fleets of Spain, France, Italy, Norway, Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Portugal.
The only thing they should expect to happen is the construction of thousands of U-Boats for the complete exclusion of the islands from the outside world. Luftwaffe was already much better than RAF.

The imagination is to think that you will win the war in the way Britain is guiding you.
What did Germany finally do in World War 2? Exactly what Britain wanted. Britain was leading and Germany was following.
In the end, Germany was fighting on 5 fronts. The moment when Germany had to take the helm was Dunkirk. Or immediately after.
How? Landing in the British Isles. In England and from there to Ireland. And from there to Iceland

The attack on the East will take place after a few years of peace and after Germany had prepared and equipped all the nations without the threat of war on its territories. Under these circumstances, Europe's war industry would work wonders. The nations would be fanatical before the final attack and would fight with full consciousness for their homelands and for the New Free Homeland. The United Europe of the Nations.
There in the territories of Lebensraum everyone would create new homelands. New France, New Norway, New Finland, New Netherlands, New Italy, New Greece, New Spain, New Portugal, New Denmark.... The year for singing the German version "Marschiernt in Feindesland" in SU who talk about Volga was 1945, and after singing the På vikingtog in 41 to 42 in late....in England and Ireland and Iceland

The only vulnerability is that it would initially need peace with the Soviet Union. This has been the case since '39 with Ribbentrop Molotov.
I am sure that the Soviets would not even dare to think that they would be the first to attack the United Europe. All they would do was equip themselves. They would have no luck if the barbarossa operation started by the way i describe perhaps in 1945

The Great Man showed us the Sun. But he was desperately alone. Maybe if he had chosen to have Rudolf Hess by his side and not the British, everything would have been easier. There would be no more problems on the planet and the humanity at this time would be traveling to the stars.
Last edited by Beteigeuze on 12 Nov 2020 17:33, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by AbollonPolweder » 12 Nov 2020 17:21

Beteigeuze wrote:
11 Nov 2020 21:02
...
He even start the early barbarossa operation to impress the British.
What is the main goal of Barbarossa? " ... to impress the British"? Or to conquer Lebensraum?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by AbollonPolweder » 12 Nov 2020 17:24

Beteigeuze wrote:
12 Nov 2020 17:13
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
11 Nov 2020 19:23
I not understand why so much persons was write same nonsense again and again and again.
I do not think this opinion is nonsense but the reality. That's the reason many say it!
Yes, sir!
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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Beteigeuze
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Beteigeuze » 12 Nov 2020 17:54

AbollonPolweder wrote:
12 Nov 2020 17:21

What is the main goal of Barbarossa? " ... to impress the British"? Or to conquer Lebensraum?
The moment it happened for both. Although i believe at this moment was no luck to conquer Lebensraum. He did it to impress the British and achieve a front ONLY on the east. If he had succeeded, he would have won the war in this way. The way the Big Man chose. He was incurably romantic. The British betrayed him even though they knew he could destroy them if he wanted...

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