Counter wrote:I was a little sick of all this nonsense started by Peter89 in order not to discuss "Germany strategy regarding the maritime flanks of the USSR" (this is a sub-forum for Strategy, not for "What-if" stories) and I know that I will never convince this amazing trio (Peter89, Ironmachine and Richard). But anyway, now I have time and I can amuse myself
Lots of free time, lack of knowledge and a too high opinion of himself (remember the "That was the right strategy they missed" statement?), a sure recipe for disaster!
Counter wrote:Or Ironmachine writing that Germany could not assist Spain economically to win the war because the germans did not give to Spaniards what they asked
Well, Germay could not even win the war by itself, that's a fact. It is highly questionable that adding another weak link is going to make the chain stronger, isn't it?
Then, Ironmachine and Richard, apparently came to help their supposed friend. They added the Francoist legend -that Franco never wanted to join Axis
Another day, another lie. I have never said that Franco never wanted to join the Axis. I have no problem in saying that he would have loved to joing the Axis if, and that's is a very great if, the Axis was clearly going to win the war. And that's the problem. That end of the war, an Axis victory, was far from evident in 1940.
Country wrote: and a lot of pedantry about stupendous or not so stupendous airfields and other kind of little irrelevant details. A kind of slippery slope...
Irrelevant for you they may be. Irrelevant in the real world, certainly not.
Counter wrote:Ironmachine is even dramatic...
Where is the argument about German impossibility to supply the material resources that Spain asked for ?
I presume that Ironmachine is referring to the texts he inserted in page 6, post 82, in this thread. This is from a very well known book -Germany and the Second World War- why should I not know it?- In any part of those pages it is written that there was an impossibility of providing Spain the economic assistance that Spain needed.
Well, if you don't know how to read or if you can't understand what is said in some plain English sentences, then there is nothing I can do about that.
Counter wrote:Ironmachine has the extravagant idea that if Spain is joining the Axis would have been the only Hitler´s ally not getting the required assistance to turn Spain a serviceable factor in the war.
No, I don't have that idea and I have never stated such thing. Putting words in my mouth which I did not say only means that you have no serios arguments to defend your ideas.
However, you should take a look at how much serviceable factors in the war were other Hitler's allies with the assistance provided by Germay. You could be surprised!
Counter wrote:What you find in that text -and in every text about that historical question- is the complain of Hitler about Spain asking too much and offering little to Germany. Never that Spain could not get the grain or the fuel required.
What you can find in those texts (I quoted from different sources) is the plain statement, acknowledged by German authorities, that they could not supply what Spain asked for. And that was my point.
Now, you can certainly argue that what Spain asked for was far more than the absolute minimum that Spain required. Then, you could jump to the conclusion that Spain could get the grain or the fuel "required" if the Spanish requirements were those that Germany considered to be appropriate, so that Germany's supply capacity should be enough. But that's playing with marked cards! And what's more, that was not the issue in discussion.
On the other hand, unless the Germans present a military ultimatum, something like an invasion threat if Spain does not join the Axis immediately, Franco has no need to reduce his demands. He has nothing to lose and lots to gain.
Counter wrote:Ironmachine added a text with date February 12 1941 stating that Germany could not provide Spain with "rubber, cotton and jute" but about the rest obviously that can be negotiated depending on the "Top-level decision"
You fail to note (on purpose?) that a footnote states:
[…] the OKW replied on Apr. 28 […] that the Army as well as the Luftwaffe was unable to provided any material whatsoever[…]
so that rubber, cotton and jute were not the only supplies (yes, military equipment is also supplies, and Spain also asked for it) that could not be supplied.
As for the rest that "obviously could be negotiated depending on the top-level decision", let's see the actual quote:
Moreover, fertilizers, mineral oil, grain, trucks, and railroad cars cannot be delivered without setting aside important German interests. If by top-level decisión Germany’s own requirements for the last-named goods could be deferred to some extent, certain deliveries might be conceivable, but on a scale which would not by a long way approach the Spanish requests and which, because of the transportation difficulties, could furthermore not be brought to Spain in the time requested in the memorándum.
So the top-level decision should defer Germany's own requirements and still the deliveries that could be provided "would not by a long way approach the Spanish requests" and "could furthermore not be brought to Spain in the time requested". So again, what is being said is plain and simply that Germany could not provide what Spain asked for. Your selective "understanding" of the sources provided is not going to change that fact.
Counter wrote:Anyway, that was two months after Franco decided not to join Axis due to the lack of interest of Hitler (no offer of a considerable colonial booty for Spain... and not a proportionate threat against the Franco´s government either).
As a matter of fact, the text is from 12 February, that IIRC was the month when Hitler cancelled Operation Felix. However, unless you imply that two months before that date (or for that matter, six months before) Germany's supply capacity would have been radically different and better, that changes nothing. And two or six months before 12 February, Germany's circumstances were not significantly different.