German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

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DavidFrankenberg
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German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 01 Dec 2020 14:01

Hi,

all is in the title : what were the German losses from April 44 till may 45 on the Eastern Front ?
By eastern front, I mean the German losses inflicted by the Red Army in USSR but also in Eastern Europe (44) and in Germany (45).

1 million dead ?

Michael Kenny
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Michael Kenny » 01 Dec 2020 15:39

The short answer is the actual number is unknown.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 01 Dec 2020 19:36

Michael Kenny wrote:
01 Dec 2020 15:39
The short answer is the actual number is unknown.
Not even a little estimate ?

Art
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Art » 25 Dec 2020 21:04

There are known estimates by Overmans:
Image
For the year 1945 Overmans gives the aggregate numbers without breakdown by fronts. It should be borne in mind that these numbers are probably maximal estimates.

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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Richard Anderson » 25 Dec 2020 21:18

Art wrote:
25 Dec 2020 21:04
For the year 1945 Overmans gives the aggregate numbers without breakdown by fronts. It should be borne in mind that these numbers are probably maximal estimates.
I'm still wondering how he estimated a third of a million casualties after 8 May 1945...
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Art
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Art » 26 Dec 2020 13:01

POWs death, I guess.

Richard Anderson
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Richard Anderson » 26 Dec 2020 15:26

Art wrote:
26 Dec 2020 13:01
POWs death, I guess.
Because German POW were systematically starved and murdered after the war by the Allies? Yeah, but no.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 26 Dec 2020 15:50

Overmanns and his 'interpolations'....old story. Simply sucks...

Jan-Hendrik

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Dec 2020 16:57

Art wrote:
25 Dec 2020 21:04
There are known estimates by Overmans:
Image
For the year 1945 Overmans gives the aggregate numbers without breakdown by fronts. It should be borne in mind that these numbers are probably maximal estimates.
Thank you Art. So it is like 1 million German losses for the eastern front for 1944 and 1945.

What about German losses from January till march ? I don't remember great battles during that time.
Jan-Hendrik wrote:
26 Dec 2020 15:50
Overmanns and his 'interpolations'....old story. Simply sucks...

Jan-Hendrik
Do you have better sources, please ?
Thank you in advance. :thumbsup:

Art
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Art » 27 Dec 2020 10:00

Original (and sometimes seriously downstated) reports are available down the link:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161109232 ... okw44.html

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stg 44
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by stg 44 » 01 Jan 2021 22:06

Richard Anderson wrote:
26 Dec 2020 15:26
Art wrote:
26 Dec 2020 13:01
POWs death, I guess.
Because German POW were systematically starved and murdered after the war by the Allies? Yeah, but no.
Soviet records do show that something like 450k German PoWs died in Soviet custody and likely many more died before they could be added to PoW rolls given the large number of permanent missing. So no, not Basque's 'other losses' or systematic starvation (other than arguably what happened to the Stalingrad PoWs) like what the Germans did to the Soviet PoWs in 1941-42, but still a substantial mortality rate.

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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Art » 02 Jan 2021 09:08

stg 44 wrote:
01 Jan 2021 22:06
Soviet records do show that something like 450k German PoWs died in Soviet custody
Official numbers are 380,000 death of POWs from the German Wehrmacht, not all of whom were actually Germans by ethnicity. The bulk of these deaths happened before May 1945. There were probably slightly more than 100,000 deaths beginning from June 1945 and until the end of repatriation.
given the large number of permanent missing
I would attribute them to the gap in reporting.

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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Peter89 » 16 Feb 2021 10:22

Richard Anderson wrote:
26 Dec 2020 15:26
Art wrote:
26 Dec 2020 13:01
POWs death, I guess.
Because German POW were systematically starved and murdered after the war by the Allies? Yeah, but no.
In the case of Hungary, the POWs and other rounded-up males were very badly treated in slave labor camps in the SU. Even if it was not a systematic plan, thousands perished of infections, malnutrition and cold.

To be fair, I personally met and talked to some people who were taken away to do forced labor in Kiev, and the guy was so talented (he was a plumber) that the Soviets wanted to keep him there, offered him a flat, a decent salary and multiple wives.

About 30% of the Hungarian POWs and malenkij robot prisoners died.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Richard Anderson » 16 Feb 2021 18:19

Peter89 wrote:
16 Feb 2021 10:22
Richard Anderson wrote:
26 Dec 2020 15:26
Art wrote:
26 Dec 2020 13:01
POWs death, I guess.
Because German POW were systematically starved and murdered after the war by the Allies? Yeah, but no.
In the case of Hungary, the POWs and other rounded-up males were very badly treated in slave labor camps in the SU. Even if it was not a systematic plan, thousands perished of infections, malnutrition and cold.

To be fair, I personally met and talked to some people who were taken away to do forced labor in Kiev, and the guy was so talented (he was a plumber) that the Soviets wanted to keep him there, offered him a flat, a decent salary and multiple wives.

About 30% of the Hungarian POWs and malenkij robot prisoners died.
I understand, but when we have reasonably well documented estimates of c. 178,000 postwar PW deaths becoming 750,000, then I have a problem. The only way that Overmann can make it work is by forcing a further 575,000 deaths into the wartime years, after already shoehorning in hundreds of thousands into those years with little explanation of how they occurred other than "German reporting was bad", which simply wasn't the case.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Art
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Re: German losses from April 44 till may 45 (Eastern Front)

Post by Art » 17 Feb 2021 13:00

The number of Hungarian POWs death in 1944-1949 was about 50,000 of nearly half a million registered prisoners.

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