It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

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wm
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It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by wm » 28 Aug 2020 21:01

True or false?
During the morning intermission, Goering was overheard telling the others how they could have wiped out France in 14 days, if his and Hitler's plan to attack immediately after the conquest of Poland had materialized.
Dr. Horn asked why they didn't follow through. Goering said it was only the weather that tied up the Luftwaffe.

Raeder added that if the winter attack had succeeded, they could have polished off England in the spring of 1940.
Goering said it would have taken only 5 airborne divisions to knock out England in the spring if France had already been licked.
Nuremberg Diary by G. M. Gilbert

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Eugen Pinak » 28 Aug 2020 21:19

True,
IF there were 5 airborne divisions,
IF there were aircraft to transport and supply them,
IF there were aircraft to support them,
IF there were no sizable forces of the British army, Navy and Air Force on the British Isles,
IF there were....
IF there were....
IF there were....
And the last, but not least - IF British Government and High Command agreed to surrender after landing of such a small force.

raedwald
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by raedwald » 28 Aug 2020 21:59

Well they didn't. So perhaps it would not have been that easy.?

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wm
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by wm » 29 Aug 2020 12:47

immediately after the conquest of Poland had materialized

Peter89
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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Peter89 » 30 Aug 2020 07:41

The FJ doctrine in 1940/1941 wasn't particurarly developed for large scale invasions of islands. It was developed to secure key points of interest with light / specialized equipment, and to hold it for a limited time.

Besides, there was almost no chance to retain the element of surprise either.

Also, the LW did not have the means to either establish air supremacy over Britain or to deliver 5 divisions to the invasion areas.

Also, the LW / KM cooperation was so abysmal that the first joint operation resulted the sinking of 10% of KM's destroyer force.

By the time Germany started to develop better FJ doctrines, acquired proper transports for heavy weaponry, established proper airfields and naval bases, they've attacked the SU.

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by MLW » 30 Aug 2020 15:20

The airborne operation would still have to be conducted with an amphibious invasion and Germany had no chance of successfully conducting that.

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Andy H » 30 Aug 2020 20:41

Hi

After FJ ops in the Low Countries and the well known losses in suitable transports, the other major casualty was the loss of parachute silk.
Germany didn't have the means to immediately replace those losses, never mind supply the extra silk required for 5 divisions.

As others have stated the means and ability to deliver 5 divisions was well beyond the capabilities of the LW and any such force wouldnt have lasted long without substantial reinforcement by sea, which as we know the KM were never in a position to land with any guarantee of it being successful.

So all in all cheap words without any consequence for uttering them, other than boosting HG overblown ego.

Regards

Andy H

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Thumpalumpacus » 31 Aug 2020 03:52

Given that LW fighter planes had serious issues trying to gain air superiority over English skies after a month, no, I think Goering was being silly. And even had they all landed untouched by Fighter Command, I doubt they could have beaten the Brits.

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by FlyingStukas » 07 Sep 2020 11:20

Andy H wrote:
30 Aug 2020 20:41
Hi

After FJ ops in the Low Countries and the well known losses in suitable transports, the other major casualty was the loss of parachute silk.
Germany didn't have the means to immediately replace those losses, never mind supply the extra silk required for 5 divisions.

As others have stated the means and ability to deliver 5 divisions was well beyond the capabilities of the LW and any such force wouldnt have lasted long without substantial reinforcement by sea, which as we know the KM were never in a position to land with any guarantee of it being successful.

So all in all cheap words without any consequence for uttering them, other than boosting HG overblown ego.

Regards

Andy H
Well said, Andy.

Even IF it had been done, it would not have lasted long.
Cheers,
Filip

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 14 Sep 2020 21:30

wm wrote:
28 Aug 2020 21:01
True or false?
During the morning intermission, Goering was overheard telling the others how they could have wiped out France in 14 days, if his and Hitler's plan to attack immediately after the conquest of Poland had materialized.
Dr. Horn asked why they didn't follow through. Goering said it was only the weather that tied up the Luftwaffe.
This is wildly optimistic. Hitler canceled the October, and the November, and December attacks because like Halder & many others there was zero confidence in success. War-games run at Halders HQ at Zossen, & analysis by the Army Group and Army commanders revealed many serious problems. Artillery ammunition at hand, weather, progress of French and Belgian mobilization, number of recently activated formations with incomplete training, the ongoing reorganization of the tank and motorized divisions.

In early November Halder ordered a series of war-games that tested three different plans, including Mansteins work as Chief of Staff for AGA. All three test resulted in strategic failure and a stagnated front after severe losses. (From Mays 'Strange Victory')

Raeder added that if the winter attack had succeeded, they could have polished off England in the spring of 1940.
Goering said it would have taken only 5 airborne divisions to knock out England in the spring if France had already been licked.
Nuremberg Diary by G. M. Gilbert
This was opined without much understanding of Britains air defense, the reserves that were in the UK, and what would also have been on hand in this circumstance. All these remarks sound like wishful thinking, much of it from a drug addict.

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by aurelien wolff » 15 Sep 2020 21:06

uh is it heart of iron IV? Because you still need these 5 division to cross the channel and the british defense system would let them do it ,also didn't the wargame they organised after the war proved that sealon was doomed (+when doing a what if on sealion ,you need to take in account tons of parameter such as logistic ,avaiable ressources ,the RAF and the royal navy+the britsh army)

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by dgfred » 01 Dec 2020 17:10

What? Goering writing checks his butt can't cover? Never. Haha

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Erwinn » 11 Jan 2021 12:47

5 Airborne Divisions could even get knocked out by the civilian population of England.

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by LineDoggie » 13 Jan 2021 00:40

wm wrote:
28 Aug 2020 21:01
True or false?
During the morning intermission, Goering was overheard telling the others how they could have wiped out France in 14 days, if his and Hitler's plan to attack immediately after the conquest of Poland had materialized.
Dr. Horn asked why they didn't follow through. Goering said it was only the weather that tied up the Luftwaffe.

Raeder added that if the winter attack had succeeded, they could have polished off England in the spring of 1940.
Goering said it would have taken only 5 airborne divisions to knock out England in the spring if France had already been licked.
Nuremberg Diary by G. M. Gilbert
FALSE need AIR SUPERIORITY first

second LW hadnt the ability to keep those landed, supplied with those lumbering Ju52/53

Third Crete showed the Ju52/53 was a slow target and deathtrap

Goering needed to be weaned off his narcotics, man was insane
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: It Would Have Taken Only 5 Airborne Divisions to Knock Out England

Post by Sheldrake » 13 Jan 2021 11:51

wm wrote:
28 Aug 2020 21:01
True or false?
During the morning intermission, Goering was overheard telling the others how they could have wiped out France in 14 days, if his and Hitler's plan to attack immediately after the conquest of Poland had materialized.
Dr. Horn asked why they didn't follow through. Goering said it was only the weather that tied up the Luftwaffe.

Raeder added that if the winter attack had succeeded, they could have polished off England in the spring of 1940.
Goering said it would have taken only 5 airborne divisions to knock out England in the spring if France had already been licked.
Nuremberg Diary by G. M. Gilbert
This is the great airborne myth, that airborne forces would allow a force to win a war by seizing "strategic objectives" that would achieve victory without doing the boring bit of beating the other fellow's armed forces through attrition. There were a few of these pre WW2 by bombing, tank and parachute enthusiasts.

The airborne envelopment of the Hague and Rotterdam and seizure of Crete generated a lot of excitement and an investment by the Western Allies. What was overlooked was Rotterdam and The Hague were a strategic diversion and expensive tactical failures and that Crete was an expensive tactical success against an isolated island. The Brits and Americans created a big airborne force that ended up looking for a strategic role that justified its expense - but led instead to Op Market Garden.

Airborne forces were the C20th equivalent of the grenadiers and hussars of the Napoleonic wars. A sexy role for the most macho soldiers with cool uniforms, badges and bragging rights.

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