German troop strength by month by theatre

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Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 02 Aug 2020 15:40

According to Vigneras, Rearming the French (p. 331), the French had 36,000 men screening the German ports in western France on 10 November 1944. It is not clear if these were already-formed French units or FFI units that had been "regularized." FFI were in various states of transition to regular army units.

The French 1st Army in December 1944 had around 241,000 men. (p. 337).

Richard Anderson
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Richard Anderson » 02 Aug 2020 16:37

Senex wrote:
02 Aug 2020 03:04
Excellent info.
Would you happen to have access to similar data for 1 November 1944 (or closest to that date)?
That is the product of some 20+ years of study looking at Ob.West on the eve of the invasion, using multiple, often conflicting, and sometimes frustratingly incomplete sources, building the organizations and strengths from the ground up as well as the top down. The rough totals may be confirmed from figures given by Burkhart Müller-Hillebrand for March and July 1944, but unfortunately no such figures that I can recall exist for 1 November, although I have not looked recently. I want to say that we did find fairly complete figures for HG-B for December when doing the ACSDB, but I don't recall we found such figures for Ob.West as a whole? Part of the problem is that in the fall of 1944 the German record keeping systems began to unravel from the strain. Worse, given that records were retired at half-yearly intervals, January and July. meant that many of the records for the second half of 1944 were likely lost in transit or destroyed.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Yuri
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Yuri » 02 Aug 2020 17:21

Art wrote:
28 Jul 2020 06:25
Ground forces personnel breakdown on 1.6.44:

1.jpg
I have long been interested in the reverse side of this document.
In particular, there does it indicate how the forces of the 17th Army (49th mountain and 5th Army Corps) evacuated from the Crimea are accounted for?
It was on June 1 1944 that the HQ of 17th Army finished counting these forces. I would be grateful for You if there is an opportunity to place this part of the document here.

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 02 Aug 2020 20:51

Richard Anderson wrote:
02 Aug 2020 16:37
Senex wrote:
02 Aug 2020 03:04
Excellent info.
Would you happen to have access to similar data for 1 November 1944 (or closest to that date)?
That is the product of some 20+ years of study looking at Ob.West on the eve of the invasion, using multiple, often conflicting, and sometimes frustratingly incomplete sources, building the organizations and strengths from the ground up as well as the top down. The rough totals may be confirmed from figures given by Burkhart Müller-Hillebrand for March and July 1944, but unfortunately no such figures that I can recall exist for 1 November, although I have not looked recently. I want to say that we did find fairly complete figures for HG-B for December when doing the ACSDB, but I don't recall we found such figures for Ob.West as a whole? Part of the problem is that in the fall of 1944 the German record keeping systems began to unravel from the strain. Worse, given that records were retired at half-yearly intervals, January and July. meant that many of the records for the second half of 1944 were likely lost in transit or destroyed.
Thanks. The histories written about the war tend to provide snapshots from 1 June 44 and 1 December 1944, since those were closest to momentous events like D-Day and Wacht-am-Rhein. I am a little bit surprised that data for dates in between have been so hard to come by (with archive locations closed due to Covid). I'm still holding out hope of turning up the data, and if I do, I will post them here.
Last edited by Senex on 03 Aug 2020 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

Richard Anderson
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Richard Anderson » 02 Aug 2020 21:44

Senex wrote:
02 Aug 2020 20:51
Thanks. The histories written about the war tend to provide snapshots from 1 June 44 and 1 December 1944, since those were closest to momentous events ...
No, those snapshots are usually provided because those are the dates where the increasingly fragmentary data surviving still provides some insights as to what those figures were. :D For example, there is virtually nothing available for the second half of August 1944 for HG-B.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 02 Aug 2020 22:44

I am reminded of a joke.

A cop saw a man on his hands and knees under a street light one evening. He asked him what he was doing.
"Looking for my car keys."
"Where did you lose them?" the cop asked.
"Over there in the dark alley."
"Well, if you lost them over there, why are you looking for them over here?
"Because this is where the light is."

Sometimes history is simply guided by what sources are available.
Last edited by Senex on 02 Aug 2020 23:58, edited 1 time in total.

Richard Anderson
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Richard Anderson » 02 Aug 2020 23:24

Senex wrote:
02 Aug 2020 22:44
I am reminded of a joke.

A cop saw a man on his hands and knees under a street line one evening. He asked him what he was doing.
"Looking for my car keys."
"Where did you lose them?" the cop asked.
"Over there in the dark alley."
"Well, if you lost them over there, why are you looking for them over here?
"Because this is where the light is."

Sometimes history is simply guided by what sources are available.
:lol: Yep.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Art
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Art » 03 Aug 2020 07:50

Senex wrote:
02 Aug 2020 15:40
According to Vigneras, Rearming the French (p. 331), the French had 36,000 men screening the German ports in western France on 10 November 1944. It is not clear if these were already-formed French units or FFI units that had been "regularized." FFI were in various states of transition to regular army units.

The French 1st Army in December 1944 had around 241,000 men. (p. 337).
Here are the number of rations issued by the US ETO on 28.2.45 (in thousands):
US Army - 2878
US Navy - 71
Merchant Marine - 2
UNRRA - 1
British and other allied troops - 20
British and allied civilians - 15
Others (Red Cross, press etc) - 12
French combat troops - 273
Italian service troops - 37
Slavic service troops - 2
Service and security troops [that means French, I guess] -175
Various security troops [French militia] - 51
Civil workforce (mobile) - 29
Civil workforce (stationary) - 127
POWs on work - 288
Other POWs - 176
Allied POWs- 1
Total 4158 thousand rations (incl. 633 on British Isles)

I guess, that was in one of US official histories, I don't remember which one exactly.

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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Art » 03 Aug 2020 09:39

Yuri wrote:
02 Aug 2020 17:21
I have long been interested in the reverse side of this document.
Not much there:
T78R414F6383153.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Yuri » 03 Aug 2020 12:50

Art wrote:
03 Aug 2020 09:39
Yuri wrote:
02 Aug 2020 17:21
I have long been interested in the reverse side of this document.
Not much there:
T78R414F6383153.jpg
Thank You, Art. For me, it is important not only what is in the document, but also what is not there.
I'm sorry toimportunity. But could you enlighten, if you know, the context of this document ("Notiz"): what is the whole set of documents; who is the author; for what purpose and for whom the document (s) was compiled.

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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Art » 03 Aug 2020 15:56

That's the previous page, I can't understand if it's related:
T78R414F6383151.jpg
It looks to me like the Org.Abt. put copies of documents dealing with personnel strength in a folder meant for the war diary leaving no realted correspondence or other context.
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Yuri
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Yuri » 03 Aug 2020 16:49

Thank you very much!
Yes, unfortunately, can not find out who the author of the document, despite the fact that it is not a duplicate, but the original 4th copy.

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 04 Aug 2020 20:09

Maybe a different tack might yield results: army groups or field army strength reports?
As of 1 NOV 44, there were only two army groups: B and G
There were a limited number of field armies under those army groups: 15th, 1st Parachute, 7th, 1st, 5th Panzer and 19th. (I do not believe the 6th Panzer Army was activated by 1 NOV 44).

Would NARA be likely to have these strength reports for 1 NOV 44 (or any date near that date)?

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 05 Aug 2020 12:43

I have found a useful source.
Hugh Cole's The Lorraine Campaign (one of the U.S. Army's so-called "green books," campaign histories of the U.S. Army).
On pp. 30-32, Cole writes:
At the beginning of September, the total paper strength of the
Army and Waffen-SS . . . 7,536,946
Navy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 703,066
Luftwaffe . . . . . . . . . 1,925,291
Wehrmacht total . . . .10,165,303

In actual fact the available fighting strength of the German ground forces was considerably below the total ration strength.
Feldheer . . . . . .3,421,000
Ersatzheer . . . . 2,387,973
Waffen-SS . . . . . . 207,276
Land forces total 6,016,249
"The remaining million and a half members of the Army (i.e. 7.5M - 6.0M) included miscellaneous Luftwaffe ground troops and SS personnel, police, foreign volunteers such as Italians, Indians, Frenchmen, and Spaniards, members of the services of supply, East European auxiliaries (Hilfswillige), and so forth.

Cole cites the following:
The most useful sources are Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, Organisations Abteilung (hereafter cited as OKW/Org. Abt.); OKH/Org. Abt.; OKW/Allgemeines Wehrmachts Amt, “Verluste der Wehrmacht bis 1944,” 1 Dec 44; and OKH/Generalquartiermeister, der Heeresarzt KTB and Anlagen. German losses given for this period are only approximate. The card files of the Heeres-Personalamt have been partially destroyed; many have been lost. However, the figures used in the text are very close to those found in MSS #T–121, T–122, Geschichte des Oberbefehlshaber West (Zimmermann et al.). See also the loss statistics Major Percy Schramm, OKW historian, obtained from the 14 March 1945 issue of the OKW, Wehrmachtfuehrangsstab (hereafter cited as OKW/WFSt) monthly publication, Beurteilung der personellen and materieIlen Ruestungslage der Wehrmacht. MS #B–716 (Schramm).
Last edited by Senex on 05 Aug 2020 22:11, edited 1 time in total.

Senex
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Re: German troop strength by month by theatre

Post by Senex » 05 Aug 2020 16:14

I Have found this.
Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht (Wehrmachtführungsstab) 1940-1945
Geführt von Helmuth Greinert und Percy Ernst Schramm
http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/ktb_iv/index.htm

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