Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
User avatar
stg 44
Member
Posts: 3121
Joined: 03 Dec 2002 01:42
Location: illinois

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by stg 44 » 13 Jul 2020 00:32

Yuri wrote:
12 Jul 2020 11:51
stg 44 wrote:
07 Jul 2020 14:14
Plus again that leaves out the navy and Luftwaffe/air defense.

The latter is particularly important as of 4th quarter 1941 it was already consuming 24% of the entire Wehrmacht weapons budget and 35% of total ammo production per the book "Flak: 1914-1945". Even in 3rd quarter 1941, i.e. in the first 3 months of Barbarossa, it was 19% and 34% respectively.
And that was just FLAK.
Reading books about the Luftwaffe anti-aircraft artillery (FLAK) of the Wehrmacht is useful.
You can learn a lot of interesting things. I read such books, too. Here, for example, is a scan of the cover of a book about FLAK from my library.
GBF_Title_сut.jpg
However, if you limit yourself only to reading such books and do not study documents, you can with a high probability get an erroneous idea of what this animal is - FLAK - and what it is eaten with.
So first a few documents about the Luftwaffe in General and about the FLAK in particular.
let's start with the General.
42-01-29 Diary of a Lw_Officer_.jpg
==========================================================
Excerpts from the diary of a German officer.
Lieutenant Gerngard Ebbing, company commander Inf. Reg. 412 227.ID / Ebbing's diary, soldier's book and letters were found near his body in the area of Rabochy poselok No. 8 (Work settlement No. 8 - Yuri).

Ebbing in the rank of Feldwebel in mid-1941 sent to the school of officers of the German air force in Gatow near Berlin, after graduating from school, in January 1942, as an officer candidate, sent to a three-month course in rifle training in Grossborn /Pomerania/.

29.1.42. Extract from the diary. "One thing is already clear, they want to turn us into foot soldiers within three months. This is the end of the good times in the air force. Housing is not what we are used to seeing in flight units. We are 15 people in one room, and we are struggling to get through. But there are 2,000 more officers and officer candidates in this position. And the fact that I am not the only one who is not lucky is a consolation."
3.2.42 . "On Sunday, we were addressed by Colonel Geiderich of the 3rd airborne regiment, who is also the head of our courses. We will be trained as platoon and company commanders in order to be sent to the Eastern front after completing our three-month training courses. Reichsmarschall Goering put us at the disposal of the Fuhrer for the next offensive. Now the hour of trial is approaching for us too. But before that time, we have a lot of things to learn. But it will work.
We have already reorganized, removed the blue uniform of the air force and put on the gray uniform of the infantry, only we still wear the badge of pilots on our chest.
The service is not easy. Fortunately, the cold is already giving up. We study the carbine of the 1898 model, the 08 pistol, the 1940 submachine gun. A lot of activities on the ground, which I previously had no idea about. I hope that we will learn a lot here to stand up for ourselves in the upcoming battles."

13.3.42. ".... Today is the first inspection of the commander of the 10th flying division, major General Peterson.
We are very much in the courtyard. The power supply does not match the current load. In all my time at school, I was never really fed. If only the food had improved?"
29.3.42. "The food has improved noticeably. Last week came General aviation Student along with chief of staff Stomach."
20.4.42. "The Führer's birthday! A day of serious joy. I was promoted to Lieutenant. My long-term wish was fulfilled. To be a Lieutenant is to be an example in life and in death. Thank you, Lord God. You've always favored me so much. Don't leave me in the future."
21.4.42. "Speech of ReichsMarshal Goering at the graduation of courses: "For 3 months, you were gathered here for courses in order to prepare you, officers and candidates for officers, for combat. What was possible to achieve in 3 months is achieved.
This was at the climax of the battle, when the Führer asked me to allocate from my air force two thousand more young men, called as officers and young leaders to take part in various bridgeheads of future battles. With this I was instructed, as far as possible, to help the fraternal type of weapons - the infantry, young officers of the air fleet, to fill in the heavy losses that the winter brought us. In addition, the air force has created combat regiments from its own ranks, which also require the presence of young officers. All those selected for this purpose are collected in these courses. Each of you individually will be put in your place, and he, as a young officer and as a young chief, must do his duty, mostly as a young chief, for this is what we are called to do and what you have been taught to do. Each of you will lead German men in the future. What does it mean? What is the first duty of management?
It is the first duty, everywhere and always, as a leader, to be an example to those whom you lead, in order to reach their blind trust, wherever it leads them.
It was a difficult decision for me to select hundreds of young officers from my air force. But everywhere we must take into account the common great interests. You can't think in small terms. We must understand that today, at the time of the greatest battle that our country is waging, everyone must do their duty wherever the Fuhrer's orders put them. And it is to those who are now leaving for the land army that I appeal. You go as a representative of the air force. So you will be considered. And you should always and everywhere carry with you the feeling that in a new place you need to show your spirit, the spirit of aviation. You should stand out especially. It's hard for you, of course. But I am sure that you will soon grow into a new environment. You are our messengers in the land army, and therefore I ask you to show that the people of aviation everywhere can fight and lead.
.... /cut - Yuri/
The enemy is hard and ruthless, but it will be defeated as it has been hitherto. In a few more weeks, his only ally at home – the cold, the swamps, the snow and ice – would be gone. Then the German soldier will show the world that only the weather prevented him from rushing forward, that we are now paying off and that the enemy will learn that the new addition is worthy of the old fighters and that above all-courage.
.../cut - Yuri/
Be and remain national socialists and brave soldiers. That you will be, we swear! Glory to victory!".
18.9.42. "My hour of departure for the 227th division has come."
20.9.42. "I found out where the 227th division is located. It is located in Pukhalovo, South of Mga."
11.1.43. "That was a day. Throughout the morning until dinner, the enemy did not leave us alone. At 06: 30, the mortar attack began. About 500 ruptures lay down near our strong point. At 11: 30, after heavy gunfire, a reconnaissance group appeared. We recaptured it, but it only started after that. For 2 hours we were bombarded by 122 and 152 mm guns. There are no losses yet." The diary ends here.
==============================
Cool. A single anecdote is not data however. Nor does this really have anything to do with anything I've said in this thread.
Yuri wrote:
12 Jul 2020 15:38
From the diary of a German officer who was killed in the area of Work settlement No. 8, we learn a lot of interesting things about the Luftwaffe personnel, who are located at Home and in the West.
These Luftwaffe personnel are trained for ground combat operations on the Eastern front, training takes place in Luftwaffe schools, the teacher is also from Luftwaffe personnel. Young and healthy guys change the beautiful blue Luftwaffe uniform for a modest, gray infantry uniform and go to the Eastern front, where they quickly find their death in the infantry divisions of the land forces of the Wehrmacht.
The owner of the diary recorded a speech by Reichsmarschall Goering, from which we learn that the Luftwaffe not only transfers its personnel to the infantry divisions of the land forces, but creates its combat regiments for operations on land. Where are the Luftwaffe combat regiments fighting? everywhere, for example, one of these regiments is attacking Stalingrad.
Luftwaffe field divisions. They have a well documented history. Same with FLAK units detached to the army.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4262
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 13 Jul 2020 11:01

It's kinda cute to see you continue to play the game of 'I'm not going to provide any substantiation for my claims because it's sufficient to make one-liner remarks about the substantiated claims of others' game stg 44. But that's all it is. We see right through you.

Yes, LFD's have a well documented history. This includes the formation of 5 overstrength Luftwaffen Feld Regimenter in late 1941 cf Lexikon der Wehrmacht), and the despatch of 100,000 men from the Luftwaffe into these Divisions from the summer of 1942 (Osprey book on LFDs).

It really isn't as neat as you keep pretending it is, and as we established before it is apparent that you haven't looked into this topic at all, and from your latest response appear to be unwilling to do so.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
stg 44
Member
Posts: 3121
Joined: 03 Dec 2002 01:42
Location: illinois

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by stg 44 » 13 Jul 2020 16:28

Urmel wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:01
It's kinda cute to see you continue to play the game of 'I'm not going to provide any substantiation for my claims because it's sufficient to make one-liner remarks about the substantiated claims of others' game stg 44. But that's all it is. We see right through you.
What information did I not provide above that I was asked to or should have in your opinion?
BTW I bowed out of this thread because it's clear a productive discussion isn't going to happen, yet days later posters are still quoting me to post irrelevant diary entries.
Urmel wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:01
Yes, LFD's have a well documented history. This includes the formation of 5 overstrength Luftwaffen Feld Regimenter in late 1941 cf Lexikon der Wehrmacht), and the despatch of 100,000 men from the Luftwaffe into these Divisions from the summer of 1942 (Osprey book on LFDs).
Men who were already in the East and reorganized to provide ground security for bases in 1941 and then troops to make up for the deficit in infantry in 1942 because Goering didn't want to release them to the army. Again, not really seeing how that matters to the point I made that was quoted.
Urmel wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:01
It really isn't as neat as you keep pretending it is, and as we established before it is apparent that you haven't looked into this topic at all, and from your latest response appear to be unwilling to do so.
Sure, I'm unwilling to seriously engage with people who aren't engaging in good faith. At that I bid you all adieu.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1388
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 13 Jul 2020 16:40

stg 44 wrote:
13 Jul 2020 00:32
Cool. A single anecdote is not data however. Nor does this really have anything to do with anything I've said in this thread.
Yes, I agree, a little, but as the Russian saying goes: mal zolotnik, da dorog. Approximately this can be translated as: a gold coin is small, but nevertheless expensive. How is this "Nor does this really have anything to do with anything I've said in this thread."? has and directly refutes what You claim.
So, the Luftwaffe's expenses in the second half of 1941 for the training of 2000 pilots should be written off at a loss, this is an empty cost (the Russians in such cases say so: kotu pod khvost; not a direct transfer, but an analog = went down the drain).
Further, the cost of the Luftwaffe in the first quarter of 1942 to re-train these pilots as infantrymen should be removed from the cost of the Luftwaffe and added to the cost of the land army. I do not have the opportunity to spend time on the production of such calculations. If you have the desire and ability to perform such calculations, we will all be very grateful to you.
stg 44 wrote:
13 Jul 2020 00:32

Luftwaffe field divisions. They have a well documented history. Same with FLAK units detached to the army.
Unfortunately, your answer confirms how deep the error can be if you draw knowledge only from books without studying documents. Neither A (7. Fl. Div.) nor B (Lw. Reg.) not have anything to do with C (Lw.FDs). These are completely different the ground formations of Luftwaffe.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4262
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 13 Jul 2020 17:48

stg 44 wrote:
13 Jul 2020 16:28
Urmel wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:01
It's kinda cute to see you continue to play the game of 'I'm not going to provide any substantiation for my claims because it's sufficient to make one-liner remarks about the substantiated claims of others' game stg 44. But that's all it is. We see right through you.
What information did I not provide above that I was asked to or should have in your opinion?
BTW I bowed out of this thread because it's clear a productive discussion isn't going to happen, yet days later posters are still quoting me to post irrelevant diary entries.
Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them irrelevant. You bowed out of this thread because you have no data to back up your claim that <50% of the Wehrmacht was engaged in Russia in 1941, what data you provided was shown to be wrong, and you rather resort to ad hominem attacks than admit being wrong.
stg 44 wrote:
13 Jul 2020 16:28
Urmel wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:01
Yes, LFD's have a well documented history. This includes the formation of 5 overstrength Luftwaffen Feld Regimenter in late 1941 cf Lexikon der Wehrmacht), and the despatch of 100,000 men from the Luftwaffe into these Divisions from the summer of 1942 (Osprey book on LFDs).
Men who were already in the East and reorganized to provide ground security for bases in 1941 and then troops to make up for the deficit in infantry in 1942 because Goering didn't want to release them to the army. Again, not really seeing how that matters to the point I made that was quoted.
And again you show you do not know what you are talking about. LW Feldregimenter were not just reorganised air crew for ground security. They were directly replacing army troops. In any case their use is irrelevant to the question at hand which is about numbers and direction of effort.
stg 44 wrote:
13 Jul 2020 16:28
Urmel wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:01
It really isn't as neat as you keep pretending it is, and as we established before it is apparent that you haven't looked into this topic at all, and from your latest response appear to be unwilling to do so.
Sure, I'm unwilling to seriously engage with people who aren't engaging in good faith. At that I bid you all adieu.
I have provided data and backup info throughout. You are the one who hasn't and now invokes others act in bad faith. Readers can see this clearly. The only one acting in bad faith here is you.
Last edited by Urmel on 14 Jul 2020 12:08, edited 2 times in total.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1388
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 14 Jul 2020 10:14

stg 44 wrote:
07 Jul 2020 14:14
The latter is particularly important as of 4th quarter 1941 it was already consuming 24% of the entire Wehrmacht weapons budget and 35% of total ammo production per the book "Flak: 1914-1945". Even in 3rd quarter 1941, i.e. in the first 3 months of Barbarossa, it was 19% and 34% respectively.
And that was just FLAK.
Yes, if it was that just/simple.
Let's try to take a closer look at FLAK-HEIMAT and FLAK-OSTEN. Let's start with a simple one - with differences.
A.) Differences in operating conditions.
The degree of difference between these conditions can be understood from this.
Operating conditions in HAIMAT.
https://yandex.ru/video/preview/?filmId ... 94149760.1
Operating conditions in OSTEN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAiLo9Vz06w
Note. By the way, those who are going to capture the Volga-Ural region and further to Siberia should understand that there are no other conditions there and there can't be.

B.) Differences in tasks.
FLAK-Haimat has one task-to repel an air attack.
FLAK-OSTEN's tasks are diverse:
1.) repelling an air attack;
2.) repelling a tank attack;
3.) reflection of the enemy's infantry attack;
4.) its own artillery attack;
5.) accompanying the attack of its own infantry;
6.) fighting partisans: reflection of partisan attacks and attack on partisans.

C). Differences in the mode of operation.
FLAK-Haimat: 1-1.5 hours a week.
FLAK-OSTEN: 25 hours a day/ 8 days a week.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4262
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2020 12:08

And here is confirmation that Luftwaffen Feld Regiment 1 was not a locally raised unit, but rather sent from Reich territory.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4262
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2020 12:10

There were a number of other ground units in the area of Luftflotte 1, and within a short time a Brigade staff was sent to control them. These units were however all operating under Heer control, either directly in frontline ops, or in rear area security.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 300
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 14 Jul 2020 14:04

stg 44 wrote:
07 Jul 2020 14:14

You're also forgetting the much larger support apparatus for Rommel's commitment to Africa than rail commitments in the East.
Can you to give some evidences and datas for Rommel Germany army on Afrika to have much larger support apparatus than for Germany army on east ?

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1388
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Yuri » 14 Jul 2020 14:36

An example of the daily activity of anti-aircraft artillery of the German air force (FLAK of Luftwaffe Wehrmacht) in the East.
42-10-28 4-FlakReg7_AbendMeldung.jpg
As always: Apologies for my terrible translation
===============================================
4./Flakregiment 7 (4th battery of the 7th anti-aircraft regiment)
26.10.1942

An (To:) I./Flak.Regt. 7
Abend-Meldung (Evening report).

A.) Luftlage: (Air Data): The action of our bombers and fighters was noted.
Erdlage: (Ground situation:) The front line runs 2 kilometers North of Nalchik.

B.) Flakeinsatz: (anti-aircraft artillery Task:) Pursuit of the enemy to the South.

C.) Gefechtstätigkeit: (Combat activity:) Street fights in CHEGEM 1 and CHEGEM 2.
05.15. Support for the 2nd company of the 10th mountain infantry battalion /Romanians/
07.20 Destruction of 6 enemy earthfortification, destroyed 3 anti-tank guns and one observation point of anti-tank guns. 80 prisoners and many anti-tank rifles were captured. Fighting persecution along the road of CHEGEM-SHALUSKA.

D.) Verluste: (Loss:) Destroyed a battery of 3 guns. 2 people were seriously injured, and one feldwebel-paramedic was slightly injured.
E.) Besonderes: (Miscellaneous:) Pulling up vehicles with ammunition is not possible, since the roads are still mined. The second paramedic was killed.
F.) Absiechten: (intentions:)....
G.) Wetter und Stassenlage: (Weather and road conditions:) Cloudless. Travel road.

(signature)
Oberleutnant und Batterienführer
.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4262
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2020 14:49

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
14 Jul 2020 14:04
stg 44 wrote:
07 Jul 2020 14:14

You're also forgetting the much larger support apparatus for Rommel's commitment to Africa than rail commitments in the East.
Can you to give some evidences and datas for Rommel Germany army on Afrika to have much larger support apparatus than for Germany army on east ?
Of course he cannot. Amongst other things because it is not true. The numbers are e.g. included in Halder's war diary. While proportionally the support per unit in Africa (e.g. in terms of trucks) was higher than it was in the East, in absolute numbers it still wasn't even a contest. On 26 April 1941 Halder has a breakdown in his war diary of the allocation. Chief Quartermaster Wagener reported that 90% of transport tonnage was allocated to the east, 67,240 tons out of 74,290 tons total. Africa had a paltry 2,190 tons, or 3%.

It really is tiresome to have to deal with people making stuff up, and then accusing others of arguing in 'bad faith' when they are called on their nonsense.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 300
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 14 Jul 2020 17:28

Urmel wrote:
14 Jul 2020 14:49
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
14 Jul 2020 14:04
stg 44 wrote:
07 Jul 2020 14:14

You're also forgetting the much larger support apparatus for Rommel's commitment to Africa than rail commitments in the East.
Can you to give some evidences and datas for Rommel Germany army on Afrika to have much larger support apparatus than for Germany army on east ?
Of course he cannot. Amongst other things because it is not true. The numbers are e.g. included in Halder's war diary. While proportionally the support per unit in Africa (e.g. in terms of trucks) was higher than it was in the East, in absolute numbers it still wasn't even a contest. On 26 April 1941 Halder has a breakdown in his war diary of the allocation. Chief Quartermaster Wagener reported that 90% of transport tonnage was allocated to the east, 67,240 tons out of 74,290 tons total. Africa had a paltry 2,190 tons, or 3%.

It really is tiresome to have to deal with people making stuff up, and then accusing others of arguing in 'bad faith' when they are called on their nonsense.
Yes.

What stg44 was write was be mostest fallacious opinion and claim.

But i was be interest for to know what bogus datas and bogus evidences stg44 was read for to make so big fallacious.

Maybe i was be wrong and was not come from evidences but was make by stg44 self.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4262
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 15 Jul 2020 10:01

I think it is a case of adding 1 + 1 and arriving at 27, and then being upset when others point out you're not good at maths.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
AbollonPolweder
Member
Posts: 242
Joined: 09 Jan 2017 20:54
Location: Russia

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by AbollonPolweder » 15 Jul 2020 18:22

Urmel wrote:
14 Jul 2020 14:49
...
On 26 April 1941 Halder has a breakdown in his war diary of the allocation. Chief Quartermaster Wagener reported that 90% of transport tonnage was allocated to the east, 67,240 tons out of 74,290 tons total. Africa had a paltry 2,190 tons, or 3%.
...
Doesn’t it seem to you that speaking of a «support apparatus» stg44 means not so much a «transport tonnage» but a logistics of it? It is one thing to deliver cargo by land for several hundred km in peacetime and it is quite another thing to transport much less
cargo by sea for several thousand km, being at war? It is possible that the latter will cost more. If you count in dollars :milwink: ... or marks.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4262
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Der Alte Fritz on O'Brien's How the War was Won

Post by Urmel » 16 Jul 2020 20:19

Well that would just be more muddled thinking uninformed by facts. Delivery to Naples or Brindisi was by Italian rail for the most part. It’s not like it could have done much to support the East. Delivery across the Med was in German and Italian merchants which were not going anywhere else either. The one big impact was on oil. But that didn’t come until early 1942.

So it doesn’t matter which way you want to slice it, the vast majority of transferable transport assets was in the east. Yes proportionally the Afrika-Korps had a higher slice. But it was only two divisions. The slice could have been 10 times higher and it would have been negligible, as shown.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”