12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by AbollonPolweder » 05 May 2020 18:01

CNE503 wrote:
04 May 2020 17:03
You're correct. So, when this document was written? Second half of May, early June 1941?
CNE503
I can’t name the exact date, because nowhere except for the source we are analyzing (document No. 61) I have not met this plan. But, based on the second line of the title: Die im Mai 1941 voraussichtlich verfuegbaren eigenen Kraefte ( The own forces that are expected to be available in May 1941) it is clear that the planning was drawn up between May 16 and 31.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

CNE503
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Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 05 May 2020 19:06

Copy that. It seems highly probable, indeed.
Thank you for your help and insight!
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 05 May 2020 19:23

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
09 Apr 2020 23:40
In ktb HG.Sud was write 2 Pz.Div and SS."W".
For the record, Anlage 1a for Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa of January 31st, 1941, listed the following as part of the XIV. Armeekorps (motorisiert), under the overall command of 12. Armee: 5. and 11. Panzer-Divisionen, SS-Division "Wiking".
12. Armee was made up with:
- "Korps Hansen" (from German military mission in Romania, later LIV. Armeekorps): 183., 198. and 294. Infanterie-Divisionen;
- XI. Armeekorps: 167., 170. and 197. Infanterie-Divisionen;
- XXX. Armeekorps: 46. and 76. Infanterie-Divisionen;
- L. Armeekorps: 56. Infanterie-Division, 101. Leichte-Division.
The Romanian part of "Barbarossa" was initially intended to comprise five army corps, two armored divisions, one motorized division, one light division and nine infantry divisions, for a total of thirteen.
In reality, 11. Armee was involved in the early stages of "Barbarossa" with only three army corps (XI., XXX. and LIV.), six infantry divisions in first line (22., 50., 76., 170., 198. and 239. Infanterie-Divisionen), one in reserve (72. Infanterie-Division). It was half the strength initially scheduled. Two were added later (in July 1941 - 46. and 73. Infanterie-Divisionen).

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by AbollonPolweder » 06 May 2020 08:36

CNE503 wrote:
05 May 2020 19:06
Copy that. It seems highly probable, indeed.
Thank you for your help and insight!
Regards,
CNE503
Do not mention it! I see you are interested in Barbarossa. Maybe you have any documents related to the planning of Barbarossa from the headquarters of the German army groups?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

Ружичасти Слон
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Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 06 May 2020 16:45

CNE503 wrote:
05 May 2020 19:23
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
09 Apr 2020 23:40
In ktb HG.Sud was write 2 Pz.Div and SS."W".
For the record, Anlage 1a for Aufmarschanweisung Barbarossa of January 31st, 1941, listed the following as part of the XIV. Armeekorps (motorisiert), under the overall command of 12. Armee: 5. and 11. Panzer-Divisionen, SS-Division "Wiking".
12. Armee was made up with:
- "Korps Hansen" (from German military mission in Romania, later LIV. Armeekorps): 183., 198. and 294. Infanterie-Divisionen;
- XI. Armeekorps: 167., 170. and 197. Infanterie-Divisionen;
- XXX. Armeekorps: 46. and 76. Infanterie-Divisionen;
- L. Armeekorps: 56. Infanterie-Division, 101. Leichte-Division.
The Romanian part of "Barbarossa" was initially intended to comprise five army corps, two armored divisions, one motorized division, one light division and nine infantry divisions, for a total of thirteen.
In reality, 11. Armee was involved in the early stages of "Barbarossa" with only three army corps (XI., XXX. and LIV.), six infantry divisions in first line (22., 50., 76., 170., 198. and 239. Infanterie-Divisionen), one in reserve (72. Infanterie-Division). It was half the strength initially scheduled. Two were added later (in July 1941 - 46. and 73. Infanterie-Divisionen).

CNE503
It is correct that AOK.11 was start Barbarossa with less divisions than was be plan in january. But must to look careful on details. Because was be possible for to start with same number divisions.

January plan was be for 13 divisions. 9 was start invasion on 21.june. 4 was be still in Yu/Greece 5.pz 46.inf 183.inf 294.inf.

But AOK.11 was give 22.inf 50.inf 239.inf from reserve and 9.pz was start invasion on 21.june not 5.pz like was be plan on january.

CNE503
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Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 06 May 2020 17:42

Actually, what seems interesting to me is what the German planners DID intend to do initially. They were interested in a quite strong autonomous armored attack from Romania. The comparison with the reality is interesting too: the Germans just screened this area with enough forces to repulse a Soviet attack, if any, but without good offensive capabilities to make an independent thrust deep into USSR.
Regarding the consequences of the Greek/Yugoslav operation, the restriction to the 11. Armee - not proceed to an attack before the left wing of Heeresgruppe Süd reached Winnitza - is enlightning. It weakened their extreme left wing and altered their initial plan considerably.

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 06 May 2020 17:43

AbollonPolweder wrote:
06 May 2020 08:36
Do not mention it! I see you are interested in Barbarossa. Maybe you have any documents related to the planning of Barbarossa from the headquarters of the German army groups?
I'm sorry, I haven't. I'm just starting to identify primary documents.
But if I found something regarding army groups planning, I'll send you!

Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by AbollonPolweder » 07 May 2020 10:28

CNE503 wrote:
06 May 2020 17:43
AbollonPolweder wrote:
06 May 2020 08:36
Do not mention it! I see you are interested in Barbarossa. Maybe you have any documents related to the planning of Barbarossa from the headquarters of the German army groups?
I'm sorry, I haven't. I'm just starting to identify primary documents.
But if I found something regarding army groups planning, I'll send you!

Regards,
CNE503
OK! Good luck to you!
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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