12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
TheMarcksPlan
Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 24 Apr 2020 22:33

CNE503 wrote:
09 Apr 2020 20:27
In a very recent French book (2019) written by the leading French scholar about the topic (Jean Lopez), the following is stated (I translated from French to English):
"Initially, Halder had planned a huge encirclement of the Soviet forces located between Dniestr and Dniepr, with the two prongs using armored units. The first one was to attack from Lublin with two armies (6. and 17.), the second one from Romania with the 12. Armee.
The decision to assign the very powerful 12. Armee (17,5 divisions) to attack Greece compelled OKH to modify its deployment with two orders, dated April 2nd and 12th, 1941. 12. Armee was replaced, on the Romanian border, by the weak 11. Armee, without armor; the encirclement operation was cancelled and a simple one-pronged attack was to be launched by the forces from Lublin area".

It's here (in French though): https://books.google.fr/books?id=xHGrDw ... 22&f=false
From "Barbarossa 1941, the absolute war", Jean Lopez and Lasha Otkhmezuri, éditions Passés composés, 2019, 956 pages (https://www.amazon.fr/Barbarossa-guerre ... 289&sr=1-1).

I repeat my question: early 1941, apparently, before being tasked to crush Greece, 12. Armee was scheduled to attack from Romania into USSR to assist the encirclement of the Soviet forces of the military district of Odessa between Dniestr and Dniepr. This order was obviously cancelled, probably as early as March 2nd, 1941 (when 12. Armee entered Bulgaria), maybe before.
But what were the forces that were to be part of its attack in southern Ukraine according to the initial OKH planning?

CNE503
What page of Lopez's book is this discussion on? I have access to a copy of the book but, not knowing French, I'll have to laboriously Google translate the surrounding text to get more of the discussion.

---------------------

Btw, there's another ATL by another member discussing the possibility of a Galician kessel via shifting Panzer Group 4 from Army Group North to South. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=245903

IMO this is the most feasible path to German victory in the war, though I'm less confident of that outcome absent slightly stronger forces and better logistical/industrial planning ahead of Barbarossa.

CNE503
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 25 Apr 2020 08:42

This is page 211. I can help to translate anything if needed, French is my mothertongue ;)
My opinion is that Germany was probably to weak to win the contest without changing things that Hitler couldn't (for instance: create independent slavic countries in the name of freedom and independence to Soviet rule to secure strong support from the Soviet peoples; getting everything - everything - he had at hand against the Red Army, most notably most of the forty divisions he left in the West and in the Balkans, not speaking about the two armored divisions he involved in Libya; using bold but dangerous strategy, striking ruthlessly the heart of Soviet power: Moscow).
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

User avatar
AbollonPolweder
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: 09 Jan 2017 20:54
Location: Russia

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by AbollonPolweder » 25 Apr 2020 15:09

CNE503 wrote:
08 Apr 2020 21:20
Hello,

Does anyone know how strong this army should have been in the first German planning for "Barbarossa", before December 1940 (that is, before to be assigned to "Marita")?
In particular, did it was strengthened with Panzer-Divisionen?

Thank you for any information about this.
Regards,

CNE503
You can see about the alleged combat strength of 12 AOK here in the plan of Marcks (August 1940)
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/4
and in the OKH directive of January 31, 1941
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/6
As you can see, Marcks proposed 2 tank divisions, 4 motorized and 6 infantry divisions. According to the OKH plan were supposed : 2 Pz, 1 Mot., 10 ID and Romanian formations. 12 AOK was supposed to attack according Barbarossa from the line of Husi - Jassy - Botosani (Romania) to Ukraine. But instead of Ukraine, 12 AOK found itself in Greece, where in April 1941 it fought on Olympus and at Thermopylae. :o
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

CNE503
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 25 Apr 2020 15:22

Actually, the Romanians were not intended to contribute a lot to "Barbarossa" in the first plannings. Only a handful of selected divisions was scheduled. To compensate the initial force being spent over in the Balkans or southern Poland, more Romanian units were asked to Antonescu to participate, to a final force of 14 infantry divisions, three mountain brigades, three cavalry brigades, two fortress brigades and the "motor-mechanized" division.

Thank you very much for these documents.
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

User avatar
AbollonPolweder
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: 09 Jan 2017 20:54
Location: Russia

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by AbollonPolweder » 25 Apr 2020 17:49

CNE503 wrote:
25 Apr 2020 15:22
...
Thank you very much for these documents.
Regards,
CNE503
Nothing to thank for my post! I am glad to help you, sir.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

CNE503
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 25 Apr 2020 17:54

No, these documents are golden and I was unaware of their existence. If you know other "Barbarossa"-related documents that are on germandocsinrussia (Lossberg's study named Operationsstudie "Ost" , Marcks's additional study named "Beurteilung der Lage Rot", OKW "Aufbau Ost", etc.) or elsewhere (but somewhere I can reach them!), I would be very glad and grateful if you tell me where I could find them.

So, I thank you very much for that.
Best regards from France,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

TheMarcksPlan
Member
Posts: 1223
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 26 Apr 2020 06:36

AbollonPolweder wrote:
25 Apr 2020 15:09

You can see about the alleged combat strength of 12 AOK here in the plan of Marcks (August 1940)
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/4
Is there an English version of the Marcks plan? Given my moniker and a background desire to learn some of the German I've forgotten since last milennium, I might try to translate it (poorly, very poorly).

CNE503
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 26 Apr 2020 08:39

I'm currently translating it (in French) but as it means typing it on a word document to insert the text in an online translator, the text I typed may be of some use :)

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1106
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by Gorque » 26 Apr 2020 13:23

AbollonPolweder wrote:
25 Apr 2020 15:09
You can see about the alleged combat strength of 12 AOK here in the plan of Marcks (August 1940)
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/4
and in the OKH directive of January 31, 1941
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/6
As you can see, Marcks proposed 2 tank divisions, 4 motorized and 6 infantry divisions. According to the OKH plan were supposed : 2 Pz, 1 Mot., 10 ID and Romanian formations. 12 AOK was supposed to attack according Barbarossa from the line of Husi - Jassy - Botosani (Romania) to Ukraine. But instead of Ukraine, 12 AOK found itself in Greece, where in April 1941 it fought on Olympus and at Thermopylae. :o
Hi AbollonPolweder:

Thank you for sharing the link. :thumbsup:

User avatar
AbollonPolweder
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: 09 Jan 2017 20:54
Location: Russia

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by AbollonPolweder » 28 Apr 2020 15:44

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
26 Apr 2020 06:36
...
Is there an English version of the Marcks plan? Given my moniker and a background desire to learn some of the German I've forgotten since last milennium, I might try to translate it (poorly, very poorly).
I have no English version. You can reed a few paragraphs on my website right after the "Verbatim report of a conversation between the Führer and Field Marshal Keitel on September 18, 1942."
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941 ... prilozenia
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

User avatar
AbollonPolweder
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: 09 Jan 2017 20:54
Location: Russia

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by AbollonPolweder » 28 Apr 2020 20:19

CNE503 wrote:
25 Apr 2020 17:54
No, these documents are golden and I was unaware of their existence. If you know other "Barbarossa"-related documents that are on germandocsinrussia (Lossberg's study named Operationsstudie "Ost" , Marcks's additional study named "Beurteilung der Lage Rot", OKW "Aufbau Ost", etc.) or elsewhere (but somewhere I can reach them!), I would be very glad and grateful if you tell me where I could find them.

So, I thank you very much for that.
Best regards from France,
CNE503
1.https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/4
It's the Lossberg's plan.
2.https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/6
This is "Die Plannung der Offensivoperation". These are Halder's materials based on the projects of Marcks, Lossberg, Sodenstern, which were used in Hitler's report 26.11. 1940.
It's the same document № 61 as you see.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

CNE503
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 03 May 2020 13:30

AbollonPolweder,

Could you help me date exactly when the document "Die Planung der Offensivoperation" you shared the link to was written?

It mentioned sources as "Vortragnotiz für den Führervortrag über den Operationsentwurf Ost vom 26.11.40", "Vortrag des ObdH beim Führer am 5.12.40", "Forderung des Führers in seiner Besprechung mit dem ObdH am 5.12.40" or "Äuβerung des Führers dem Chef WFSt gegenüber am 17.12.40", but also "Hinweis des Führers auf die russische Flankenstoβtaktik in seiner Besprechung mit dem ObdH am 3.2.41" or "Richtlinien für die Feindtäuschung" vom 12.3.41".

My understanding is that it was a document that summed up every previous operational planning sessions that was edited mid-March 1941 at the earliest.
So I share your assessment that it was made up with projects of Marcks, Lossberg, Sodenstern (and also Greiffenberg and Paulus), but with Halder's add-ons (and possibly from Hitler himself).

What do you think about it?
Thank you for your help.

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 03 May 2020 18:21

I forgot to mention the following source used: "Besprechung beim Führer am 1.4.41".
So this document must have been written on the first days of April 1941 at the earliest - which is odd because the 12. Armee is still assigned to the southernmost attack from Romania...

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

User avatar
AbollonPolweder
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: 09 Jan 2017 20:54
Location: Russia

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by AbollonPolweder » 04 May 2020 16:48

CNE503 wrote:
03 May 2020 18:21
I forgot to mention the following source used: "Besprechung beim Führer am 1.4.41".
So this document must have been written on the first days of April 1941 at the earliest - which is odd because the 12. Armee is still assigned to the southernmost attack from Romania...

CNE503
Hello CNE503! If you open the document on page 84,
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/5
you will see the date 16.5.41.
And on page 81 it is said about replacing 12 AOK with 11 AOK under the command of General Schobert.
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/ ... ect/zoom/5
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

CNE503
Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: 12. Armee in "Barbarossa"

Post by CNE503 » 04 May 2020 17:03

You're correct. So, when this document was written? Second half of May, early June 1941?
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”