why is Rommel admired by some people?

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ljadw
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by ljadw » 13 Apr 2020 11:34

Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 08:08
ljadw wrote:
12 Apr 2020 21:22
Without the Italians, Rommel would be a British POW in April 1941 .
Contrarian as always. :lol: Italians were inferior to the German army. Not that Rommel ever blamed the italian soldiers.They were not well equipped and badly led.
Italians inferior to the German Army ? Only in Allo,Allo.
The Regia Marina supplied the Germans in NA and the Italians fought as well in NA as did the Germans .Without these supplies and without the help of the Italian army,Rommel would not have lasted in NA : there were always more Italians than Germans in NA .There was in April 1941 only one German division in NA.

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 13 Apr 2020 11:43

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Apr 2020 10:42
Hi Aida1,

You are aware that using smilies and repeating "laughable" and "nonsense" are not arguments in themselves?

I have posed about a dozen questions to you in my last few posts. Will you be answering any of them?

An ever inquisitive Sid
I use these terms because they are appropriate. You are always glossing over the fact that Bomber command had a policy of area bombing in order to terrorise german civilians. All the mentioning of military installations is an attempt at hiding the true intent. As ridiculous as when the US refererred to the présence of military installations in Hiroshima. The atom bomb was a terror attack but one is sometimes sensitive about that. :lol: As if one needed an A bomb to take out a few military targets within a city. :lol: One could actually justify the use of the A bomb as it did achieve its purpose although its legality is debateable.
And when a court actually interpreted the Hague convention to apply it on air attacks, it developed standards which clearly made the attack against Dresden illegal. I think these judges had more common sense than you.
Last edited by Aida1 on 13 Apr 2020 11:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 13 Apr 2020 11:45

ljadw wrote:
13 Apr 2020 11:34
Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 08:08
ljadw wrote:
12 Apr 2020 21:22
Without the Italians, Rommel would be a British POW in April 1941 .
Contrarian as always. :lol: Italians were inferior to the German army. Not that Rommel ever blamed the italian soldiers.They were not well equipped and badly led.
Italians inferior to the German Army ? Only in Allo,Allo.
The Regia Marina supplied the Germans in NA and the Italians fought as well in NA as did the Germans .Without these supplies and without the help of the Italian army,Rommel would not have lasted in NA : there were always more Italians than Germans in NA .There was in April 1941 only one German division in NA.
That is the contrarian in you again as the italian army was under equipped, badly led and badly trained. Qualititively far inferior to German units.

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Yuri
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Yuri » 13 Apr 2020 11:56

Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 09:46
Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Apr 2020 08:55
Hi Tom,

Dresden was close enough to the front line for the Soviet Union to ask the Western Allies to bomb it to help their troops nearby, but it was not yet in it.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Dresden was apparently 68 miles from the front - less than half the distance Rommel advanced in a single day in France in June 1940. (See what I did there?)
The red army offensive only resumed in mid april 1945 so Dresden was certainly not on the verge of being taken red army ground forces .
On February 3, 1945, Red Army troops capture a bridgehead on the West Bank of the Oder.
Stavka is developing a plan of operation to capture Berlin and reach Dresden on February to 13-15. In this regard, the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, Marshal Stalin, on the first day of the Yalta conference, appeals to British Prime Minister Churchill and US President Roosevelt with a request to bomb the railway junction of Dresden, as well as the warehouses of weapons and ammunition near this city. What has been promised.
The threat to the right flank of the 1st Belorussian front (that is, the threat from Pomerania) forced the Stavka to refuse to continue moving in the direction of Berlin-Dresden.
The final decision to abandon the Berlin-Dresden offensive was made after February 18, 1945. At the same time, some of the military leaders of the red Army advocated a non-stop continuation of the offensive on Berlin.
The most active opponent of the stop on the Oder river line was the commander of the 8th Guards Army Marshal of the Soviet Union Chuikov. Disputes about this issue continued both immediately after the end of the war, and many years later, and do not stop even now. You can read about this in the memoirs of Marshal Zhukov.
Thus:
1. The Stavka appealed to its allies at the beginning of February 1945 to bomb the district of Dresden in connection with the plan to continue the offensive on this city and the capital of the Third Reich. Therefore, this request is caused by military necessity.
2. At the time of the bombing of Dresden on February 13, 1945, the allies did not know that the Stavka would postpone the start of the offensive on the capital of the Third Reich for a very simple reason - on this day, even the Stavka did not yet know what the final decision on this issue would be. Conclusion-the bombing of Dresden on February 13 was carried out due to tactical necessity.

And now the question: was there a tactical need to bomb the city of Kiev on the morning of June 22, 1941, without declaring war?
For reference: the distance from the Western border of the USSR to the city Kiev (the capital of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) is more than 500 kilometers.

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 13 Apr 2020 12:03

Yuri wrote:
13 Apr 2020 11:56
Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 09:46
Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Apr 2020 08:55
Hi Tom,

Dresden was close enough to the front line for the Soviet Union to ask the Western Allies to bomb it to help their troops nearby, but it was not yet in it.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Dresden was apparently 68 miles from the front - less than half the distance Rommel advanced in a single day in France in June 1940. (See what I did there?)
The red army offensive only resumed in mid april 1945 so Dresden was certainly not on the verge of being taken red army ground forces .
On February 3, 1945, Red Army troops capture a bridgehead on the West Bank of the Oder.
Stavka is developing a plan of operation to capture Berlin and reach Dresden on February to 13-15. In this regard, the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, Marshal Stalin, on the first day of the Yalta conference, appeals to British Prime Minister Churchill and US President Roosevelt with a request to bomb the railway junction of Dresden, as well as the warehouses of weapons and ammunition near this city. What has been promised.
The threat to the right flank of the 1st Belorussian front (that is, the threat from Pomerania) forced the Stavka to refuse to continue moving in the direction of Berlin-Dresden.
The final decision to abandon the Berlin-Dresden offensive was made after February 18, 1945. At the same time, some of the military leaders of the red Army advocated a non-stop continuation of the offensive on Berlin.
The most active opponent of the stop on the Oder river line was the commander of the 8th Guards Army Marshal of the Soviet Union Chuikov. Disputes about this issue continued both immediately after the end of the war, and many years later, and do not stop even now. You can read about this in the memoirs of Marshal Zhukov.
Thus:
1. The Stavka appealed to its allies at the beginning of February 1945 to bomb the district of Dresden in connection with the plan to continue the offensive on this city and the capital of the Third Reich. Therefore, this request is caused by military necessity.
2. At the time of the bombing of Dresden on February 13, 1945, the allies did not know that the Stavka would postpone the start of the offensive on the capital of the Third Reich for a very simple reason - on this day, even the Stavka did not yet know what the final decision on this issue would be. Conclusion-the bombing of Dresden on February 13 was carried out due to tactical necessity.

And now the question: was there a tactical need to bomb the city of Kiev on the morning of June 22, 1941, without declaring war?
For reference: the distance from the Western border of the USSR to the city Kiev (the capital of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) is more than 500 kilometers.
There is a big difference between attacking targets within a city and burning it down to inflict terror. Daylight attacks by US bombers could easily deal with military targets within the city.
Germany never really had a strategic airforce. Only tactical bombers.

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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Apr 2020 12:13

Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 12:03
Daylight attacks by US bombers could easily deal with military targets within the city.
Germany never really had a strategic airforce. Only tactical bombers.
Evidence that this was not possible has already been posted. Ignoring it to continue to peddle your conspiracy theories in no way alters that reality.

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 13 Apr 2020 12:23

Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 12:03

There is a big difference between attacking targets within a city and burning it down to inflict terror.
Maybe with today's pin-point accuracy, but not at all the case in WW2. As seen in Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Belgrade, Kiev, etc, etc.

And has been pointed out in this thread, the myth of USAAF pin-point bombing during WW2 is just that, a myth.

Do you have any historical points that you want to make about Rommel rather than just repeat ad nauseum how unfair it all was?

Regards

Tom

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 13 Apr 2020 12:42

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
13 Apr 2020 12:23
Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 12:03

There is a big difference between attacking targets within a city and burning it down to inflict terror.
Maybe with today's pin-point accuracy, but not at all the case in WW2. As seen in Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Belgrade, Kiev, etc, etc.

And has been pointed out in this thread, the myth of USAAF pin-point bombing during WW2 is just that, a myth.

Do you have any historical points that you want to make about Rommel rather than just repeat ad nauseum how unfair it all was?

Regards

Tom

It is not a myth that the US practiced daylight attacks against military targets in Europe. Certainly not with the accuracy you have now but at least they tried and this was more successful than just terror attacks which bomber command did. British seem to be very sensitive about the terror attacks as they were very nasty.

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Aida1
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 13 Apr 2020 12:47

Michael Kenny wrote:
13 Apr 2020 12:13
Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 12:03
Daylight attacks by US bombers could easily deal with military targets within the city.
Germany never really had a strategic airforce. Only tactical bombers.
Evidence that this was not possible has already been posted. Ignoring it to continue to peddle your conspiracy theories in no way alters that reality.
It was possible and when you attempt it, you will not kill 25000 civilians. Collateral damage will be severe but there is a big difference with intentionally burning down a city. There is a reason why Dresden was and is controversial. Actually the whole bomber command policy is controversial. No conspiracy theory there. Just fact.

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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Apr 2020 12:57

Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 12:47
Actually the whole bomber command policy is controversial. No conspiracy theory there. Just fact.
It might be 'fact' in the world of those who think the wrong side won in WW2 but that is just those who like inferior militaries crying because (their idols) were beaten at their own game.


https://youtu.be/gT9F4qHoYlg?t=57

Ружичасти Слон
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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 13 Apr 2020 14:00

Aida1 wrote:
13 Apr 2020 08:11
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
12 Apr 2020 21:42
Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:13
Hi Yuri,

Rommel was an extraordinarily successful soldier in both world wars.

It is often said that he was better as a regimental soldier than a general. However, he was such an exceptional regimental soldier that this still leaves plenty of scope for him to be an outstanding general as well.

I cannot think of any occasion when Rommel was bested by Allied forces weaker than his own. With only a handful of divisions he was the main focus of British land combat for nearly two years and, once the US Army arrived, he made it work hard for its victories as well.

But he was also a lucky general, in that he did not have to deal with the moral quagmire on the Eastern Front, which sullied the reputations of others.

Cheers,

Sid.
Rommel was be average division commander. In France he was not do anything special.

Rommel was be under average korps and army commander. In Afrika he was get description genius by British commanders. But his success was be much because British were most under average than Rommel.

He was not be lucky general. It was not be luck that most British generals were so bad.
The internet is full,of contrarians. :lol: No great commanders ever exist according to them. It was always the opponent wo was inferior. :lol: Read a book about Rommel. That will help you a lot.
You can to say contrarian 1.000.000 times and you still not be correct.

I was read many things about fights in France and Afrika. In France Rommel was be no different to other tank commanders. Average.

In Afrika he was win many battles. When read context you can to see most wins was be because British generals was worstest. Probably was be stategic failure in Afrika because Rommel make so many mistakes. Below average.

Maybe you can to read some original evidences. That will to help you alot.

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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Apr 2020 14:06

Hi Aida1,

You post, "I use these terms because they are appropriate. No, you use them as a substitute for making a constructive argument."

You post, "You are always glossing over the fact that Bomber command had a policy of area bombing in order to terrorise german civilians."

No, you have only very recently mentioned area bombing. Now that you have, twice, we may address it. Area bombing was adopted because it was initially impossible to conduct pin point bombing at night with the tools available. The Germans had found this out themselves over the UK during the Blitz of 1940-41. As almost all German industry lay within built up areas, the inevitable consequence was heavy civilian losses. The British decided to make a virtue of necessity by calling it a "dehousing" policy. The aim was to make it increasingly difficult for German workers to attend war industries by destroying the surrounding infrastructure that supported them. This had some success, as the failed German production targets of 1944 indicate. The German response was to relocate vital industries elsewhere, often underground. This, in itself, cost more production. If civilian morale collapsed during all this, (and after Hamburg Goebbels thought it might), then this was regarded as further to the good, because it was the collapse of German civilian morale in 1918 that prevented WWI dragging on into 1919.

You post, "All the mentioning of military installations is an attempt at hiding the true intent." Now who is glossing over facts? You have given no acknowledgement whtsoever during this thread that Dresden had any military value at all, let alone that it possessed "19 army barracks, depots and headquarters, (just one of which was in charge of the recruitment and training of 8% of German Army manpower); produced most of the optics for Luftwaffe bomb sights, Heer gun sights and Kriegsarine periscopes; contained the last north-south railway in German hands east of Berlin behind the Eastern Front; and because the Russians requested it to help their forces only 68 miles away."

In regard to this last, have you read Yuri's post above about the co-ordination of the raid on Dresden with a proposed Soviet offensive in the area?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Andy H » 13 Apr 2020 14:09

Hi

Well 3 and bit pages later and most of it way outside the scope of this thread.
So after wasting your time the thread is duly locked and the off-topic content will be removed in due course.

Regards

Andy H

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