why is Rommel admired by some people?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1013
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 12 Apr 2020 19:58

Peter89 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 18:58
Yuri wrote:
12 Apr 2020 18:40

Field Marshal Rommel-an outstanding military leader is the product of Dr. Goebels.
Field Marshal Rommel's most outstanding achievement was that he died on time.
Rommel received the rank of field Marshal for the fact that in the Red Army would not have given the rank of Lieutenant Colonel
Hardly the product of Göbbels. He is rather a product of the Anglo-Saxon literature.

His military achievements were not marginal, but he wasn't a hero as a lot of historians depict him in the Anglosphere.

I can't understand how did you make that comparison with his otherwise indeed funny promotion.
Clearly, you did not read any of these historians as their views are far more balanced than you pretend.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 429
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Hungary

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Peter89 » 12 Apr 2020 20:01

Aida1 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 19:58
Peter89 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 18:58
Yuri wrote:
12 Apr 2020 18:40

Field Marshal Rommel-an outstanding military leader is the product of Dr. Goebels.
Field Marshal Rommel's most outstanding achievement was that he died on time.
Rommel received the rank of field Marshal for the fact that in the Red Army would not have given the rank of Lieutenant Colonel
Hardly the product of Göbbels. He is rather a product of the Anglo-Saxon literature.

His military achievements were not marginal, but he wasn't a hero as a lot of historians depict him in the Anglosphere.

I can't understand how did you make that comparison with his otherwise indeed funny promotion.
Clearly, you did not read any of these historians as their views are far more balanced than you pretend.
Some A-S historians have a balanced view of him, but that did not make him admired.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1326
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Yuri » 12 Apr 2020 20:02

Aida1 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 19:49
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
12 Apr 2020 19:23
Peter89 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 18:58

His military achievements were not marginal
But, in the end, weren't all his so-called "military achievements" on behalf of Hitler's Nazi Germany very much "marginal"?

Regards

Tom
With the limited means at his disposal he achieved a lot in Africa. It is because he has a lot of admirors that he comes in for a lot of flak on internetforums.
The most capable commander of the Wehrmacht was Field Marshal Model.
This does not negate the fact that Model as a person is a scoundrel of the last class. But, once again, as a military commander, this is the most capable of the Germans in the 20th century. Model combined the necessary and sufficient quantities of all the qualities necessary for an outstanding military leader.
Rommel in comparison with Model is no more than a Lieutenant Colonel.
You may not be familiar with desert conditions. I am well aware of these conditions, both in military and civil matters.
Feld Marshal Rommel was acting like an Amateur. As an Amateur, he was lucky at first. This is not unique, it often happens. However, luck sooner or later (usually sooner rather than later) ends and then what really exists comes to the surface. But in reality, Rommel-the commander of the battalion is the limit of his abilities.
And please note that I was evaluating field Marshal Rommel, not Rommel in general.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1013
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 12 Apr 2020 20:04

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Apr 2020 19:53
Hi Aida1,

You post, "You are still ignoring that the rules of 1907 were completely outdated by ww2." Outdated or not, they were still in force. We still have laws in the UK that are hundreds of years old. For example, Habeus Corpus is over 800 years old and yet remains valid.

You post, "So trying to invoke them to defend carpet bombing cities is very silly." The bombing was justified because of the dozens of military targets in Dresden, some of which I have listed for you above. Hitler could have stopped the bombing, or at least have gained some badly needed moral high ground if it had continued, by declaring the city "Open" under the Hague Conventions and stopping all military activity there. He did not do so there, or anywhere else. This makes Dresden's fate ultimately his responsibility. He was prepared to see the destruction of every city in Germany just to buy himself a little extra life.

Dresden still administered 8% of German Army manpower, had 19 military depots, barracks and headquarters, carried the only north-south railway line still in German hands behind the front east of Berlin, produced most of the optics used in Luftwaffe bomb sights, Heer artillery range finders and Kriegsmarine periscopes and was defended by anti-aircraft artillery. How much more legitimate a target could Dresden be?

You post, "And German officers had no reason at all to not consider Hitler the legal head of state." Maybe, maybe not, at the time, but we have no excuse now that we have fuller facts.

You post, "They did not really like the wording of the oath but that is a side issue." Given that almost all of them had already taken at least one previous oath, and many three previous oaths, it rather looks as though they thought so too! And yet almost all of them stuck by their oath to Hitler personally.

You post, "You Will have difficulty finding historians that would pretend Hitler had no wide support along the German people." We are not in disagreement there.

Cheers,

Sid
Always repeating the same nonsense. :lol: The british had been carpetbombing German cities for a long time to demoralise the population so do not come up withis open city nonsense about Dresden. And that japenese court case i mentioned got it right. Carpetbombing a city far behind the front is contrary to the convention of the Hague so british bombings were illegal.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1013
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 12 Apr 2020 20:08

Yuri wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:02
Aida1 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 19:49
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
12 Apr 2020 19:23
Peter89 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 18:58

His military achievements were not marginal
But, in the end, weren't all his so-called "military achievements" on behalf of Hitler's Nazi Germany very much "marginal"?

Regards

Tom
With the limited means at his disposal he achieved a lot in Africa. It is because he has a lot of admirors that he comes in for a lot of flak on internetforums.
The most capable commander of the Wehrmacht was Field Marshal Model.
This does not negate the fact that Model as a person is a scoundrel of the last class. But, once again, as a military commander, this is the most capable of the Germans in the 20th century. Model combined the necessary and sufficient quantities of all the qualities necessary for an outstanding military leader.
Rommel in comparison with Model is no more than a Lieutenant Colonel.
You may not be familiar with desert conditions. I am well aware of these conditions, both in military and civil matters.
Feld Marshal Rommel was acting like an Amateur. As an Amateur, he was lucky at first. This is not unique, it often happens. However, luck sooner or later (usually sooner rather than later) ends and then what really exists comes to the surface. But in reality, Rommel-the commander of the battalion is the limit of his abilities.
And please note that I was evaluating field Marshal Rommel, not Rommel in general.
Model was good but not a scoundrel. Your biased personal,opinion again. Read a biography about him so get to know the real Model.
Same for Rommel. Do some reading.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1013
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 12 Apr 2020 20:10

Peter89 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:01
Aida1 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 19:58
Peter89 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 18:58
Yuri wrote:
12 Apr 2020 18:40

Field Marshal Rommel-an outstanding military leader is the product of Dr. Goebels.
Field Marshal Rommel's most outstanding achievement was that he died on time.
Rommel received the rank of field Marshal for the fact that in the Red Army would not have given the rank of Lieutenant Colonel
Hardly the product of Göbbels. He is rather a product of the Anglo-Saxon literature.

His military achievements were not marginal, but he wasn't a hero as a lot of historians depict him in the Anglosphere.

I can't understand how did you make that comparison with his otherwise indeed funny promotion.
Clearly, you did not read any of these historians as their views are far more balanced than you pretend.
Some A-S historians have a balanced view of him, but that did not make him admired.
He is admired a lot particularly by military professionals into mobile warfare. You seem to think there are dozens of biographies of Rommel as you suddenly admit some :lol: :lol: were balanced. I suspect you read none.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 7409
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Apr 2020 20:13

Hi Yuri,

Rommel was an extraordinarily successful soldier in both world wars.

It is often said that he was better as a regimental soldier than a general. However, he was such an exceptional regimental soldier that this still leaves plenty of scope for him to be an outstanding general as well.

I cannot think of any occasion when Rommel was bested by Allied forces weaker than his own. With only a handful of divisions he was the main focus of British land combat for nearly two years and, once the US Army arrived, he made it work hard for its victories as well.

But he was also a lucky general, in that he did not have to deal with the moral quagmire on the Eastern Front, which sullied the reputations of others.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 7409
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Apr 2020 20:16

Hi Aida1,

You post, "Always repeating the same nonsense.", Well, if you are, there is not a lot any of us can do to help you!

Shall we return to Rommel?

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1013
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Aida1 » 12 Apr 2020 20:18

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:16
Hi Aida1,

You post, "Always repeating the same nonsense.", Well, if you are, there is not a lot any of us can do to help you!

Shall we return to Rommel?

Cheers,

Sid.
At least i could support my opinion by an actual court decision .Only took me 5 minutes of googling to find it. :D

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 12 Apr 2020 20:34

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:13

I cannot think of any occasion when Rommel was bested by Allied forces weaker than his own.
First battle of Tobruk?
Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:13
With only a handful of divisions he was the main focus of British land combat for nearly two years...
Don't forget the Italians! They have been conveniently air-brushed out of the desert campaign by both the Germans and the British, but shouldn't be. They often struggled, but could still give the British a bloody nose if not treated with sufficient respect.

Rommel was also fighting against a very polyglot British Commonwealth army at the end of an enormously long supply chain.

And, he ended up losing his entire army! :thumbsup:

Regards

Tom

ljadw
Member
Posts: 10261
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by ljadw » 12 Apr 2020 21:22

Without the Italians, Rommel would be a British POW in April 1941 .

Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 203
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 12 Apr 2020 21:42

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:13
Hi Yuri,

Rommel was an extraordinarily successful soldier in both world wars.

It is often said that he was better as a regimental soldier than a general. However, he was such an exceptional regimental soldier that this still leaves plenty of scope for him to be an outstanding general as well.

I cannot think of any occasion when Rommel was bested by Allied forces weaker than his own. With only a handful of divisions he was the main focus of British land combat for nearly two years and, once the US Army arrived, he made it work hard for its victories as well.

But he was also a lucky general, in that he did not have to deal with the moral quagmire on the Eastern Front, which sullied the reputations of others.

Cheers,

Sid.
Rommel was be average division commander. In France he was not do anything special.

Rommel was be under average korps and army commander. In Afrika he was get description genius by British commanders. But his success was be much because British were most under average than Rommel.

He was not be lucky general. It was not be luck that most British generals were so bad.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 429
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Hungary

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Peter89 » 13 Apr 2020 06:41

Aida1 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:10
Peter89 wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:01


Some A-S historians have a balanced view of him, but that did not make him admired.
He is admired a lot particularly by military professionals into mobile warfare. You seem to think there are dozens of biographies of Rommel as you suddenly admit some :lol: :lol: were balanced. I suspect you read none.
1. Historians express opinions about historical characters in all sorts of books and other media, not just in biographies. I never said that I've read any balanced biographies of him.

2. Biographies cannot make a general "admired by so many people".

3. Rommel received good press in A-S news and in many A-S media about the war. Just take a look at the Battlefield series. These media did actually formed the opinion about him.

4. I have read a few sort of biographies about him in Hungarian. I was a kid and I didn't have a better taste.

5. Had the general public have a balanced opinion about him, he wouldn't be admired so much, especially not for his military achievements.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 7409
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Apr 2020 07:36

Hi Tom,

Point taken about the Italians.

However, technically Rommel didn't lose an entire army - von Arnim did. Rommel wasn't just lucky in not going to the Eastern Front!

Do you mean the first siege of Tobruk? If so, one has to include the front on the Egyptian border as well. If one does, he was still outnumbered overall.

The long British lines of communication to the Middle East only added to his effectiveness. Hundreds of thousands of men and hundreds of ships had to be employed on their lines of communication, even without counting the forces at the front. For the better part of two years his resistance, based on a single corps of German troops, kept the Italian Army in the field and tied up the land resources of the British Empire. One resason why Singapore fell was that the Middle East had priority in everything.

Others may or may not have been able to do the same, but we can be empirically certain that he actually did.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 7409
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: why is Rommel admired by some people?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Apr 2020 07:58

Hi Guys,

Here's an apparently well sourced counterpoint view from Wikipedia:

Execution of prisoners in France.

In France, Rommel ordered the execution of one French officer who refused three times to cooperate when being taken prisoner; there are disputes as to whether this execution was justified.[95][96] Bewley remarks that the shooting of a prisoner who does not behave as a prisoner is a legal option; however, this act was brutal because the officer did not have a gun, while Richard Weston, veteran at Tobruk, argues that it was not only legal but also made sense considering Rommel's situation.[97][98] Caddick-Adams comments that this would make Rommel a war criminal condemned by his own hand, and that other authors overlook this episode.[99] French historian Petitfrère remarks that Rommel was in a hurry and had no time for useless palavers, although this act was still debatable.[100] Telp remarks that, "For all his craftiness, Rommel was chivalrous by nature and not prone to order or condone acts of needless violence ... He treated prisoners of war with consideration. On one occasion, he was forced to order the shooting of a French lieutenant-colonel for refusing to obey his captors."[101] Scheck says, "Although there is no evidence incriminating Rommel himself, his unit did fight in areas where German massacres of black French prisoners of war were extremely common in June 1940."

"According to some authors, during the fighting in France, Rommel's 7th Panzer Division, alongside troops from 5th Panzer Division, committed numerous atrocities against French troops including the murder of 50 surrendering officers and men at Quesnoy and the nearby Airaines[N 1][N 2][108] According to Richardot, the commanding French officer Charles N'Tchoréré was also executed by elements of the 7th Panzer Division.[109] The division is considered by Scheck to have been "likely" responsible for the execution of POWs in Hangest-sur-Somme,[N 3] while Scheck believes they were too far away to have been involved in the massacres at Airaines and nearby villages. French historian Dominique Lormier states the number of victims of 7th Panzer Division in Airaines at 109 mostly French-African soldiers from Senegal.[111] Historian Daniel Butler agrees that it was possible the massacre at Le Quesnoy happened given the existence of Nazis like Hanke in Rommel's division, while stating that in comparison with other German units, few sources regarding such actions of the men of the 7th Panzer exist (Butler believes that "it's almost impossible to imagine" Rommel authorizing or countenancing such actions, in either case[112]). Showalter claims there was no massacre at Le Quesnoy.[113] Claus Telp comments that Airaines was not in the sector of the 7th, but at Hangest and Martainville elements of the 7th might have shot some prisoners and used British Colonel Broomhall as a human shield (although Telp is of the opinion that it was unlikely Rommel approved or even knew about these two incidents)."


Cheers,

Sid

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”