von Bock and Voronej

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jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Mar 2019 05:49

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Mar 2019 21:42
jesk wrote:
24 Mar 2019 20:54
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Mar 2019 20:50
jesk wrote:
24 Mar 2019 20:32
phrase "Брать Воронеж отнюдь не при любых обстоятельствах", means how if from 10 options of capture of Voronezh it is possible to use only 5.
ok
direct english translation from german :

1) operation no longer contingent on capture of Voronej


In other words : no need anymore to take Voronej
this is a phrase out of context no more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoting_out_of_context
What context ?

Hitler and Halder simply agreed that the seizure of Voronej was not anymore obligatory.
Further you have already explained. Why repeat.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Mar 2019 16:41
Whereas Hitler and Halder agreed not to strike Voronej, VB didnt agree.
In front of VB's stubbornness Hitler finally allowed him to do so if :
-easy and quick capture
-use only infantry
-no soviet opposition
-send the motor. div. south

Anyone would understand what it meant 'do not strike it', because it is impossible to bring together those conditions..
In this topic, 80% of your statements attempts to make logical conclusions about the past from future events. From here a lot of confusion. I'm not used to this logic. The cause-effect relationship is broken. Events of the past affect the future, not other way around.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Mar 2019 06:14

Your statements were definitely heard, the events at 18.50 on July 6 are designated by Hitler’s order on July 3 to use only infantry. And it is logically meaningless.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Records of the meeting with the Fuhrer (18.50) and the negotiations between Key-tel and Halder (19.30) 6.7.1942. {576}
Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
All this does not correspond to the reports! It is necessary to cut the railways.
It's about a few hours. Tim (Oshenko) leaves from under blow. Throw after him motorized (units)!
Keitel. The Fuhrer, together with von Bock, determined the line beyond which the main forces should not go during the pursuit.
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give any motorized division here!
It all depends on the fastest entry of the "Great Germany" and the 24th Panzer Division following the 40th Army Corps. After that, enter here the 11th and 9th tank divisions. Fuel supply!
Sheet to keep ready with all available means! ..

-send the motor. div. south
On July 3, nothing was said about it.
Of course it was. Why do you think Hitler forbade him to strike Voronej and rather go south if not to allow the fast shipment of motor. div. down the south in order to encircle soviet troops ?
In the 4th tank army 3 infantry divisions. This would be a fundamental decision to ban the use of motorized divisions. It took time to regroup the divisions for blow by infantry on Voronezh. It is surprising that apart from your logic, no other indications of a similar order on July 3.

Order of battle (24 June 1942)

XXIV. Armeekorps (mot)
- 377. Infanterie-Division
- 9. Panzer-Division
- 3. Infanterie-Division (mot)
XIII. Armeekorps
- 82. Infanterie-Division
- 2/3 385. Infanterie-Division
- 11. Panzer-Division
XXXXVIII. Armeekorps (mot)
- Infanterie-Division “Großdeutschland”
- 24. Panzer-Division
You didnt need time to regroup the div for blow by inf on Voronej, u didnt need motor. div. since YOU WERE ALLOWED to strike Voronej ONLY if it was FREE...

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Mar 2019 07:32

These are the words of Keitel. At 19.30 on July 6, he told Halder. If the city is free, take it with infantry.
So the opponent increases evidential base. Gives weight to statements. Horror!

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 25 Mar 2019 16:37

jesk wrote:
25 Mar 2019 06:14
Your statements were definitely heard, the events at 18.50 on July 6 are designated by Hitler’s order on July 3 to use only infantry. And it is logically meaningless.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Records of the meeting with the Fuhrer (18.50) and the negotiations between Key-tel and Halder (19.30) 6.7.1942. {576}
Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
All this does not correspond to the reports! It is necessary to cut the railways.
It's about a few hours. Tim (Oshenko) leaves from under blow. Throw after him motorized (units)!
Keitel. The Fuhrer, together with von Bock, determined the line beyond which the main forces should not go during the pursuit.
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give any motorized division here!
It all depends on the fastest entry of the "Great Germany" and the 24th Panzer Division following the 40th Army Corps. After that, enter here the 11th and 9th tank divisions. Fuel supply!
Sheet to keep ready with all available means! ..

On July 3, nothing was said about it.
Of course it was. Why do you think Hitler forbade him to strike Voronej and rather go south if not to allow the fast shipment of motor. div. down the south in order to encircle soviet troops ?
In the 4th tank army 3 infantry divisions. This would be a fundamental decision to ban the use of motorized divisions. It took time to regroup the divisions for blow by infantry on Voronezh. It is surprising that apart from your logic, no other indications of a similar order on July 3.

Order of battle (24 June 1942)

XXIV. Armeekorps (mot)
- 377. Infanterie-Division
- 9. Panzer-Division
- 3. Infanterie-Division (mot)
XIII. Armeekorps
- 82. Infanterie-Division
- 2/3 385. Infanterie-Division
- 11. Panzer-Division
XXXXVIII. Armeekorps (mot)
- Infanterie-Division “Großdeutschland”
- 24. Panzer-Division
You didnt need time to regroup the div for blow by inf on Voronej, u didnt need motor. div. since YOU WERE ALLOWED to strike Voronej ONLY if it was FREE...
The 6th, Hitler just repeat what he said previsouly : use inf ONLY... and take it if it is FREE !

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 25 Mar 2019 16:49

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Mar 2019 19:33
...
The capture of Voronej was part of the plan until the 3rd july. Hitler changed his mind, as Halder did.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
The question remains: why did Voronezh appear in the Blau plan? What can you say about planning Blau?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 25 Mar 2019 18:06

AbollonPolweder wrote:
25 Mar 2019 16:49
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
24 Mar 2019 19:33
...
The capture of Voronej was part of the plan until the 3rd july. Hitler changed his mind, as Halder did.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
The question remains: why did Voronezh appear in the Blau plan? What can you say about planning Blau?
The 3rd Hitler changed his mind and agreed with Halder that Voronej has not to be taken anymore.
Why ?
Hitler feareed that the Soviets would fight HARD for Voronej since there were war industries there and since it is a key point for railroad and for both direction to Moscow and to Rostov and to Stalingrad.

Hitler realized that the fights could be heavy. He didnt want to lose time and men for Voronej, his aim was Stalingrad.

That's why he decided to drop Voronej.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Mar 2019 20:02

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
25 Mar 2019 16:37
jesk wrote:
25 Mar 2019 06:14
Your statements were definitely heard, the events at 18.50 on July 6 are designated by Hitler’s order on July 3 to use only infantry. And it is logically meaningless.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Records of the meeting with the Fuhrer (18.50) and the negotiations between Key-tel and Halder (19.30) 6.7.1942. {576}
Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
All this does not correspond to the reports! It is necessary to cut the railways.
It's about a few hours. Tim (Oshenko) leaves from under blow. Throw after him motorized (units)!
Keitel. The Fuhrer, together with von Bock, determined the line beyond which the main forces should not go during the pursuit.
Voronezh, if he is free, take the infantry! Do not give any motorized division here!
It all depends on the fastest entry of the "Great Germany" and the 24th Panzer Division following the 40th Army Corps. After that, enter here the 11th and 9th tank divisions. Fuel supply!
Sheet to keep ready with all available means! ..

Of course it was. Why do you think Hitler forbade him to strike Voronej and rather go south if not to allow the fast shipment of motor. div. down the south in order to encircle soviet troops ?
In the 4th tank army 3 infantry divisions. This would be a fundamental decision to ban the use of motorized divisions. It took time to regroup the divisions for blow by infantry on Voronezh. It is surprising that apart from your logic, no other indications of a similar order on July 3.

Order of battle (24 June 1942)

XXIV. Armeekorps (mot)
- 377. Infanterie-Division
- 9. Panzer-Division
- 3. Infanterie-Division (mot)
XIII. Armeekorps
- 82. Infanterie-Division
- 2/3 385. Infanterie-Division
- 11. Panzer-Division
XXXXVIII. Armeekorps (mot)
- Infanterie-Division “Großdeutschland”
- 24. Panzer-Division
You didnt need time to regroup the div for blow by inf on Voronej, u didnt need motor. div. since YOU WERE ALLOWED to strike Voronej ONLY if it was FREE...
The 6th, Hitler just repeat what he said previsouly : use inf ONLY... and take it if it is FREE !
Halder recorded the words of Keitel. Take Voronezh, if it is free. There are no sources that Hitler said the same.
This is a fraud. From similar words from the cited sources give the credibility of truth. On the evening of July 6, Keitel said to take Voronezh, if he is free. Therefore, on the morning of July 3, Hitler ordered to take Voronezh, if he is free !? Absurd.
You can never prove Halder's words about senseless movement to Voronezh. Just because the sources in confirmation does not exist.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Mar 2019 20:41

Still re-read the diary entry. Hitler said take Voronezh, if it is free. About infantry quote refers to Keitel. Sources are not for that, to make up fairy tales! The events of July 6 had an impact on July 3... Something like, I broke my arm, so a year ago I broke my arm too. All scam in similarity of words, only dates are changed.

Records of the meeting with the Führer (18.50) and the negotiations between Key-tel and Halder (19.30) 6.7.1942. {576}
Conversation with the Fuhrer. If the city (Voronezh) is free from the enemy, it must be taken. Rostov (comparison!).
All this does not correspond to the reports! It is necessary to cut the railways.
It's about a few hours. Tim (Oshenko) leaves from under blow. Throw after him motorized (units)!

Keitel. The Fuhrer, together with von Bock, determined the line beyond which the main forces should not go during the pursuit.
Voronezh, if it is free, take the infantry! Do not give any motorized division here!
It all depends on the fastest entry of the "Great Germany" and the 24th Panzer Division following the 40th Army Corps. After that, enter here the 11th and 9th tank divisions. Fuel supply!
List to keep ready with all available means! ..

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 25 Mar 2019 21:55

You have to take into account all testimonies.
All testimonies agree on events, exce0tp VB who seems to have "misunderstood" (Glantz) or to have disobeyed.

VB has been dismissed because of this disobedience.

Read VB diary 22 october 43.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Mar 2019 22:10

Diary von Bock read. But I'm tired of your logical conclusions. What did Hitler say at July 3 meeting? Where are the testimonies, the meeting transcript?
Besides, show the reference to Glantz. That I could assess the situation depicted by him.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Mar 2019 22:27

To understand, Glantz is not necessarily considered a source. The version of Beevor is also original.

http://militera.lib.ru/h/beevor/06.html

July 3, Hitler with his retinue again arrived in Poltava for consultation with Field Marshal von Bock.
By the end of the meeting, Hitler made a compromise, but fatal decision in essence. He ordered Bock to continue fighting for Voronezh and left for this one tank corps, and all the other tank units sent south to the army of Hoth. As a result, the German troops that remained at Voronezh lost their main striking force, which could enable them to achieve a quick victory. The defenders of the city imposed fierce street battles on the Germans, in which the Wehrmacht lost all its advantages.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 25 Mar 2019 22:37

All sources already quoted.
VB diary 22 october 43 http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/21.html

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 25 Mar 2019 22:49

Hitler blamed von Bock. But you have not proven anything. Why did Halder write about meaningless traffic to Voronezh? 2 days ago claimed about the order to take Voronezh in 24 hours. Including with tanks. Then strategy changed. Hitler July 6 allegedly repeated what was said on July 3. LOL

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Mar 2019 20:01

jesk wrote:
25 Mar 2019 22:27
To understand, Glantz is not necessarily considered a source. The version of Beevor is also original.

http://militera.lib.ru/h/beevor/06.html

July 3, Hitler with his retinue again arrived in Poltava for consultation with Field Marshal von Bock.
By the end of the meeting, Hitler made a compromise, but fatal decision in essence. He ordered Bock to continue fighting for Voronezh and left for this one tank corps, and all the other tank units sent south to the army of Hoth. As a result, the German troops that remained at Voronezh lost their main striking force, which could enable them to achieve a quick victory. The defenders of the city imposed fierce street battles on the Germans, in which the Wehrmacht lost all its advantages.
Beevor is not very precise on that... Glantz is more.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 26 Mar 2019 21:43

Another source noted that Hitler had to hide von Bock’s resignation for several months. The “failure at Voronezh” is so obscure phenomenon that von Bock’s resignation would raise a question for Hitler himself. For what?

https://b-ok.cc/book/3386571/6f8818

After Hitler's departure, Bock momentarily hesitated about Voronezh. But the daring of his panzers soon decided the issue for him. On July 4, forward elements of the Fourth Panzer Army's 24th Panzer Division reached the Don, found a bridge that was still intact, and, daringly mixing in with retreating Russian units, roared on toward Voronezh. When Bock learned that his tanks were a few miles from Voronezh, he gave the order for them to finish the deed.

Bock was right: The operation netted only around 50,000 prisoners. But in Hitler's eyes. Bock had protested too much and delayed too long. On July 13, the Fiihrer changed plans again. Convinced that large numbers of Russians were concentrated along the lower reaches of the Don, he abandoned the scheduled drive by all forces eastward toward Stalingrad and prepared a major encirclement by List's Army Group A around Rostov, 125 miles south of Millerovo. To spring the trap, he stripped Bock's Army Group B of the Fourth Panzer Army and gave it to List, leaving the Sixth Army as the only German force available on the northern flank. Then, virtually in the same breath, having developed "a distinct antipathy for Bock, " as an aide later put it, he stripped Bock of his command. Bock was ordered to turn over Army Group B to his commander on the northern wing, Maximilian von Weichs—again, a change ostensibly "for reasons of health. " Such was the field marshal's prestige, however, that the Fiihrer ordered the shift in command to take place in the strictest secrecy. For months, stories and photographs of Bock appeared in the government controlled press as if he were still in command of the southern front in Russia. But the seasoned veteran, with forty-five years of military service behind him, would never command troops again.

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