German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by jesk » 19 Jan 2019 05:15

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
18 Jan 2019 23:26
That includes all of July, not the initial frontier battles from which Northwest Front escaped intact. That escape, along with the escape of Southwest Front, allowed Stavka to concentrate the bulk of its reserves against HGM, which resulted in the battles of Smolensk.
The absence of visible environments allowed falsify losses. You wrote about 90 thousand total, real losses on July 9, 260 thousand, of which only 13 thousand were wounded. Stavka had no choice but to cover Smolensk. More dangerous was advance of Germans to the east than to the northeast.

Image

This is an analysis of losses only combat units.

https://military.wikireading.ru/4782
Акцентирую внимание читателя: оценка численности общих потерь в 651 199 чел. проведена только по боевым частям СЗФ. В расчёты не вошли сведения о частях боевого обеспечения (связь, инженерные, дорожные, железнодорожные, химические части) и тыловых частях (строительные, медицинские, ветеринарные, интендантские и прочие части). Если бы была возможность исследовать и их, то, несомненно, объём потерь СЗФ за 188 суток войны был бы ещё больше. Не будет преувеличением предположить о том, что общая численность утрат личного состава СЗФ за этот период с учётом всех частей может составить свыше 700 тысяч человек.

I focus reader's attention: an estimate of the number of total losses in 651,199 people. carried out only on combat units of the NWF. The calculations did not include information on combat support units (communications, engineering, road, rail, chemical units) and rear units (construction, medical, veterinary, commissary and other parts). If there was an opportunity to investigate them, then, undoubtedly, the volume of losses of the NWF in 188 days of war would be even greater. It would not be an exaggeration to assume that the total number of losses of the personnel of the NWF during this period, taking into account all the parts, may amount to more than 700 thousand people.
So you're of the opinion that the war is over if Ostheer takes Moscow?
Perhaps I should have clarified this point earlier but I think that's totally wrong.
Soviets were completely prepared to fight on after losing Moscow. An early capture of Moscow means Southwest Front is intact on HGM's right flank and it means the next wave of reserves face HGM where its logistical strains are even greater, being further from its supply bases. Luftwaffe's ability to support would be weakened as well, as it had trouble keeping up with the Ostheer in terms of operating bases.

As I said upthread, an early capture of Moscow - with no diversion to destroy Southwest Front - would have spelled disaster for HGM.
David Glantz is totally right on this point.
Supply issues are solvable. The counterstrike of the South-Western Front is a myth. There is nothing to even discuss. This front was defeated in battles with Army Group South.
After the capture of Moscow, the logistics of the Red Army became more complicated. The delivery of cargo, replenishments would all have to be bypassed around Moscow.

One other point: You continually refer to the need for deeper panzer penetrations. The danger of this tactic is represented by, for example, the encirclement of 8th panzer division in Lithuania during July. It was trapped for four days and, after the battle, had to be withdrawn from combat due to the damage it took.

You basically take at face value everything Mannstein and Guderian said about they could have won the war through their own sheer brilliance. That's a terrible way to read history and I can't think of a single well-respected contemporary historian/analyst who accepts the Mannstein/Guderian line so credulously.
Counterstrike under Soltsy is also a myth. Firstly, it became possible due to the order of Hitler to move east to block Leningrad. The offensive of the tank corps was divided and the Russians were able to gather forces on the flanks for the counterattack. The 8th Panzer Division retained its entire composition, the recovery took several days. Hitler was looking for a reason to stop the offensive, if it were not for him, no one would have remembered about this minor episode.

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Member
Posts: 1439
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 20 Jan 2019 04:16

Jesk wrote:The absence of visible environments allowed falsify losses.
So the statistics credited by Glanz are just wrong.
Jesk wrote:Supply issues are solvable.
So logistics issues can be just hand-waved away.

Ever heard the maxim "Amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about logistics"?
Jesk wrote:The counterstrike of the South-Western Front is a myth. There is nothing to even discuss.
So it's not even worth discussing the outcome considered likely by the greatest contemporary Western expert on the Red Army (Glantz).
Jesk wrote:This front was defeated in battles with Army Group South.
So we're just going to ignore that AGS need AGM's help to destroy Southwest Front?
Jesk wrote:After the capture of Moscow, the logistics of the Red Army became more complicated.
So apparently logistics for the Ostheer are simple "solvable" while even the complication of logistics for the Red Army spells disaster and victory for the Wehrmacht.
Jesk wrote:Counterstrike under Soltsy is also a myth.
So you're saying 8th Panzer wasn't encircled for four days and heavily damaged in the fighting?
Jesk wrote:The 8th Panzer Division retained its entire composition
I guess this is true if you ignore the 1,500 casualties by July 18 and the 70 of 150 tanks lost around Solsty. See Glantz, Forgotten Battles of the German-Soviet War, 1941-45 Vol. One, p. 28.

But yeah let's just call that the "entire composition."

--------------------------------------------------------------

As I said above, we just don't share baseline ideas. You believe that the German generals were brilliant and honest in their recollections and that the Russians stood no chance against them but for Hitler's interference.

Given our basic disagreements about that point, I don't think there's much reason for further discussion. I'm not interested in, nor likely capable of, shaking someone free of belief in some myth of German invincibility.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by jesk » 20 Jan 2019 09:19

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
20 Jan 2019 04:16
So the statistics credited by Glanz are just wrong.
Glanz refers to the official figures of the 1993 compilation. Russian researcher Zemskov worked in the archives and found out that the Russians took doping and should be disqualified.

http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt
So logistics issues can be just hand-waved away.

Ever heard the maxim "Amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about logistics"?
Yes, when millions of Soviet soldiers are captured, one can only wonder why the Germans have advanced so little into the USSR.
So it's not even worth discussing the outcome considered likely by the greatest contemporary Western expert on the Red Army (Glantz).
This is a farce. Until mid-July, 7-8 Soviet armies were destroyed on the way to Smolensk. Speaking at the same time, the Soviet front, retreating 500 km under pressure from the South group, having selected 1-2 armies defeated in battles, will be able to defeat the Center group? This is empty logic about counterstrike in the flank.
So we're just going to ignore that AGS need AGM's help to destroy Southwest Front?
Why destroy it? Russian resources are large. In such conditions it is important to move forward and seize territory.
So apparently logistics for the Ostheer are simple "solvable" while even the complication of logistics for the Red Army spells disaster and victory for the Wehrmacht.
Maybe I wrote about logistics in vain. The main move forward. Hitler ordered the Germans to be more active on the flanks.
Jesk wrote:Counterstrike under Soltsy is also a myth.
So you're saying 8th Panzer wasn't encircled for four days and heavily damaged in the fighting?
Jesk wrote:The 8th Panzer Division retained its entire composition
I guess this is true if you ignore the 1,500 casualties by July 18 and the 70 of 150 tanks lost around Solsty. See Glantz, Forgotten Battles of the German-Soviet War, 1941-45 Vol. One, p. 28.

But yeah let's just call that the "entire composition."
Need to see the German sources. But on July 22, the 8th tank division again attacked the Russians. Crush them.

Image

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... .608118%2F
As I said above, we just don't share baseline ideas. You believe that the German generals were brilliant and honest in their recollections and that the Russians stood no chance against them but for Hitler's interference.

Given our basic disagreements about that point, I don't think there's much reason for further discussion. I'm not interested in, nor likely capable of, shaking someone free of belief in some myth of German invincibility.
You have a distorted view of 1941. Soltsy was singled out from successes, and this is such a trifle against the victories of the Wehrmacht.

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Member
Posts: 1439
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 20 Jan 2019 10:23

Jesk wrote:Why destroy it? Russian resources are large. In such conditions it is important to move forward and seize territory.
This is how you get the Red Army to the Rhine or Seine in 1944.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by jesk » 20 Jan 2019 10:33

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
20 Jan 2019 10:23
Jesk wrote:Why destroy it? Russian resources are large. In such conditions it is important to move forward and seize territory.
This is how you get the Red Army to the Rhine or Seine in 1944.
In 17 days the Russians traveled 500 km from the Vistula to the Oder. Any theory at the sight of this scheme does not work.

Image

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Member
Posts: 1439
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 20 Jan 2019 12:36

Did I say the Seine? I mis-spelled Mississippi.

The point is this loses the war more quickly than anything. Moscow doesn't solve Ostheer's problem, which is the ~20 million Reds it has to beat.

You still haven't explained how Moscow ends the war without having to fight those guys.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by jesk » 20 Jan 2019 14:13

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
20 Jan 2019 12:36
Did I say the Seine? I mis-spelled Mississippi.

The point is this loses the war more quickly than anything. Moscow doesn't solve Ostheer's problem, which is the ~20 million Reds it has to beat.

You still haven't explained how Moscow ends the war without having to fight those guys.
This is an interesting question. Capitulation after the fall of Moscow? I think no. The main thing to go deep into the USSR. Hitler on the flanks showed activity. In 1942, the Caucasus instead of Moscow and Leningrad.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 494
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Hungary

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by Peter89 » 20 Jan 2019 15:15

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
20 Jan 2019 04:16

--------------------------------------------------------------

As I said above, we just don't share baseline ideas. You believe that the German generals were brilliant and honest in their recollections and that the Russians stood no chance against them but for Hitler's interference.

Given our basic disagreements about that point, I don't think there's much reason for further discussion. I'm not interested in, nor likely capable of, shaking someone free of belief in some myth of German invincibility.
It took you some comments to realize that arguing with jesk is a mere exercise in futility. Welcome to AHF :)

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by jesk » 20 Jan 2019 15:32

Peter89 wrote:
20 Jan 2019 15:15
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
20 Jan 2019 04:16

--------------------------------------------------------------

As I said above, we just don't share baseline ideas. You believe that the German generals were brilliant and honest in their recollections and that the Russians stood no chance against them but for Hitler's interference.

Given our basic disagreements about that point, I don't think there's much reason for further discussion. I'm not interested in, nor likely capable of, shaking someone free of belief in some myth of German invincibility.
It took you some comments to realize that arguing with jesk is a mere exercise in futility. Welcome to AHF :)
TheMarcksPlan wrote his posts and hoped to discuss them in a different way. I argue that and your topics do not correspond to real events. 8-)

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by jesk » 20 Jan 2019 15:36

My statements coincide with the original sources. Hitler's mistake in the plans for an offensive in Ukraine? Of course! Warlimt confirms.

viewtopic.php?p=2182859#p2182859

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by Hanny » 20 Jan 2019 15:37

Peter89 wrote:
20 Jan 2019 15:15
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
20 Jan 2019 04:16

--------------------------------------------------------------

As I said above, we just don't share baseline ideas. You believe that the German generals were brilliant and honest in their recollections and that the Russians stood no chance against them but for Hitler's interference.

Given our basic disagreements about that point, I don't think there's much reason for further discussion. I'm not interested in, nor likely capable of, shaking someone free of belief in some myth of German invincibility.
It took you some comments to realize that arguing with jesk is a mere exercise in futility. Welcome to AHF :)
East mistake to make, made it myself. 8O Now i just ignore the fuckwit.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by jesk » 20 Jan 2019 15:44

Hanny wrote:
20 Jan 2019 15:37
Peter89 wrote:
20 Jan 2019 15:15
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
20 Jan 2019 04:16

--------------------------------------------------------------

As I said above, we just don't share baseline ideas. You believe that the German generals were brilliant and honest in their recollections and that the Russians stood no chance against them but for Hitler's interference.

Given our basic disagreements about that point, I don't think there's much reason for further discussion. I'm not interested in, nor likely capable of, shaking someone free of belief in some myth of German invincibility.
It took you some comments to realize that arguing with jesk is a mere exercise in futility. Welcome to AHF :)
East mistake to make, made it myself. 8O Now i just ignore the fuckwit.
In your theses about supply I noticed only conviction in their correctness. In confirmation you tried to google, information emerged scrappy. It was difficult from this porridge to isolate the whole picture.

User avatar
doogal
Member
Posts: 657
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 11:37
Location: scotland

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by doogal » 20 Jan 2019 16:42

It was difficult from this porridge to isolate the whole picture.
Classic quote:

The truth is always somewhere in between, we all know that memoirs serve to justify (in some cases) actions and are written with an agenda. But it doesn't mean that they not still useful sources: Although interpretation is needed.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: German Operational Failure during Battle of the Frontiers June 1941

Post by jesk » 20 Jan 2019 17:10

doogal wrote:
20 Jan 2019 16:42
It was difficult from this porridge to isolate the whole picture.
Classic quote:

The truth is always somewhere in between, we all know that memoirs serve to justify (in some cases) actions and are written with an agenda. But it doesn't mean that they not still useful sources: Although interpretation is needed.
They know military theory, unlike, for example, Glanz. With his singing of a counterattack under Soltsy and an imaginary threat from the south to the Center group in August.
It is these primitive arguments led his reader in the subject..

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”