Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 10 Oct 2018 20:06

Cult Icon wrote:
10 Oct 2018 18:38
The focal point of the Panzertruppe in the East was in the relief of Budapest (Konrad I, II, II ) come 1945. While these operations were occurring, in the West the german forces of the bulge were on the defensive against the Allied counteroffensive and Operation Nordwind was in action.

I can see a stronger emphasis on keeping Hungary in the war with stronger panzer forces deployed there than historically.
Hitler preferred mini-battles. He constantly crushed the Wehrmacht into small groups. If there are 78 German divisions in Typhoon, no more than 30 in the battles of 1945. This is surprising, considering the conduct of the war in Germany with its developed network of roads and the ability to quickly deploy troops in battle.
Ardennes 24 divisions. Why not 54?

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by BDV » 10 Oct 2018 23:12

Sid Guttridge wrote: You sound remarkably like the current egocentric and self-deluded occupant of the White House!

I would refer you to a Washington Post article entitled, "19 things Donald Trump knows better than anyone else, according to Donald Trump!"
I don't think this is pertinent in any way.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by histan » 11 Oct 2018 00:37

The British definition of "strategy" is:
Strategy is creating and orchestrating the instruments of national power in support of policy objectives.

Put simply, politicians decide the political objectives (the ends) strategy is about how (the ways) the political ends will be achieved and the resources that will be needed (the means).

The US definition of "strategy" is:
A prudent idea or set of ideas for employing the instruments of national power in a synchronized and integrated fashion to achieve theater, national, and/or multinational objectives.

In both cases, the politicians set the required end-state and objectives and the strategists work out how to achieve them and define the resources that will be required.

So in order the decide what strategy Germany should use in 1945 the desired political end-state and political objectives have to be defined. Most importantly, these must be capable of being achieved. If the desired political end-state is impossible then it is impossible to produce a strategy to achieve it.

In 1943, the United Nations defined their main political objective to be the unconditional surrender of Germany and the desired end-state to be the occupation of Germany. Allied strategy from then onward was designed to achieve these. By the beginning of 1945, United Nations forces were at the borders of Germany and, although it was recognized that there might be setbacks, there was (and still is) no reason the believe that the desired end-state would not be achieved by December 1945.

As we know, the German collapse in 1945 was beyond the most optimistic allied forecast and the war in Europe was over in the first week in May.

The only end-state envisaged by anyone in Germany, other than the obvious, logical, and achievable one of surrender, was for the United Nations to be split and a negotiated peace with either Russia or the US/UK achieved. There is not one shred of evidence that the United Nations could be split or that any of the allies would change the objectives and end-state set in 1943. Given that this German political end-state was not achievable, then there was no strategy for 1945 that Germany could devise that would alter the outcome of the war in Europe.

Regards

John

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Stugbit
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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Stugbit » 11 Oct 2018 04:04

Dear Citizen Jesk,

Hitler did not chose to fight mini-wars back in 44-45, those were imposed on Germans. Of course, they manage to hold on some points like Eastern Prussia where they maybe had more cohesion and strength, and this is natural, the same happened in many other examples during wars in History. The word “siege” don`t exist just for fashion, you know?

There were many German pockets of resistance further East. The Soviet just didn`t crushed them all before because their priority was reaching Berlin. Soviet commanders were competing against each other to see who would arrive first in Germany`s borders and, in that regard, their main strategy was to break any kind of line the Germans could make trying to stop them, that`s it.

Your point that Hitler was an undercover agent just underestimate the Soviet strength. Back in the Cold War period, the Western Powers didn`t had such fear of Russia for nothing, they actually saw how powerful was the thrust of their forces during their offensives against the Germans.

You seem to enjoy finding faults on mainstream History but you have to consider that the consensus in world History we have today don`t comes from thin air. There is many institutions, there is many people, academic groups, intellectual debates, many research from many different countries over those subjects, you can`t just say the whole international academic community is rogue and is intending to alienate people everywhere. This is the same of those who believe in zoocriptology and things like that.

Look, I don`t want to undermine your country in any way, by the way, but we can quite much say that Bielorussia is somehow a nowhere place, just like my Brazil here is somehow another nowhere place, you agree? So, We`re talking from two different nowhere places with half of a world between them and we both can understand that there`s a general consensus of how things happened in History, right? Such a scale just can`t be there for random and neither because of some sort of sadistic elite group trying to hide the reality of things from the regular Jesk Citizens like you, you know?

Best Regards.

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RE: The Girl From Ipanema.

Post by Robert Rojas » 11 Oct 2018 05:51

Greetings to both citizen Stugbit and the community as a whole. Howdy Stugbit! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Wednesday - October 10, 2018 - 7:04pm, old your truly was mildly surprised with your tongue-in-cheek characterizations of both Brazil and Belarus. The nation of Brazil is anything but a so-called "nowhere place". Brazil is the third largest nation in the Western Hemisphere and THE largest nation on the continent of South America. Brazil is, by ranking anyway, the eighth largest economy on the planet. If the State of California were an independent nation, the Bear Republic would be seventh largest economy on the plant. So in light of that, Brazil stands in pretty good company! Brazil is the world's tenth largest producer of petroleum and you certainly do have world class cities. Yes, Brazil certainly has its problems and issues like any other country, but when compared to the remainder of South America, Brazil is a superpower! Given the progression of time, the nation of Brazil will inevitably ascend from Second World status into First World status. Finally, try to look at the bright side, you could be residing in the "WORKERS PARADISE" of Venezuela! It's just some fraternal food for thought. Incidentally, old Uncle Bob will forego interjecting any commentary about Belarus for the time being. To be polite about it, Belarus is quite a complex issue. Well, that is my latest two Yankee cents worth on this tangential and clearly off topic matter - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in your corner of the ever exotic land that is the Federative Republic of Brazil.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :wink: 8-) :thumbsup:
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

jesk
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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 11 Oct 2018 06:29

Stugbit wrote:
11 Oct 2018 04:04
Dear Citizen Jesk,

Hitler did not chose to fight mini-wars back in 44-45, those were imposed on Germans. Of course, they manage to hold on some points like Eastern Prussia where they maybe had more cohesion and strength, and this is natural, the same happened in many other examples during wars in History. The word “siege” don`t exist just for fashion, you know?

There were many German pockets of resistance further East. The Soviet just didn`t crushed them all before because their priority was reaching Berlin. Soviet commanders were competing against each other to see who would arrive first in Germany`s borders and, in that regard, their main strategy was to break any kind of line the Germans could make trying to stop them, that`s it.

Your point that Hitler was an undercover agent just underestimate the Soviet strength. Back in the Cold War period, the Western Powers didn`t had such fear of Russia for nothing, they actually saw how powerful was the thrust of their forces during their offensives against the Germans.

You seem to enjoy finding faults on mainstream History but you have to consider that the consensus in world History we have today don`t comes from thin air. There is many institutions, there is many people, academic groups, intellectual debates, many research from many different countries over those subjects, you can`t just say the whole international academic community is rogue and is intending to alienate people everywhere. This is the same of those who believe in zoocriptology and things like that.

Look, I don`t want to undermine your country in any way, by the way, but we can quite much say that Bielorussia is somehow a nowhere place, just like my Brazil here is somehow another nowhere place, you agree? So, We`re talking from two different nowhere places with half of a world between them and we both can understand that there`s a general consensus of how things happened in History, right? Such a scale just can`t be there for random and neither because of some sort of sadistic elite group trying to hide the reality of things from the regular Jesk Citizens like you, you know?

Best Regards.
Your reasoning is based on a very small amount of knowledge about the war. Therefore, the conclusions are superficial. So often happens, the guy will watch a film about the Battle of Stalingrad and after that considers himself to know the history of the Second World War. What do you know about battles in East Prussia? Nothing. On January 27, Army Group Reinhard commander, on January 29, 4 Army Hossbach commander were sent by Hitler to resign for their intention to withdraw troops from East Prussia, in order to avoid a struggle in isolation from the main forces. The loss of territory is not so terrible as crushing an army into isolated groups.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Oct 2018 06:48

jesk wrote:
11 Oct 2018 06:29
On January 27, Army Group Reinhard commander, on January 29, 4 Army Hossbach commander were sent by Hitler to resign for their intention to withdraw troops from East Prussia, in order to avoid a struggle in isolation from the main forces. The loss of territory is not so terrible as crushing an army into isolated groups.
If all those armies had been able to link up they certainly could have beaten any Soviet offensive.
Perhaps beat them as easily as they defeated the Soviet offensive that broke through the front and isolated them in East Prussia in the first place.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Oct 2018 10:19

Hi BDV,

Then am I to assume that you accept Jesk at his own modest self estimate when he writes, "Any historian understands the history of the Second World War worse than me."?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Oct 2018 13:02

jesk wrote:
10 Oct 2018 20:06

Hitler preferred mini-battles. He constantly crushed the Wehrmacht into small groups. If there are 78 German divisions in Typhoon, no more than 30 in the battles of 1945. This is surprising, considering the conduct of the war in Germany with its developed network of roads and the ability to quickly deploy troops in battle.
Ardennes 24 divisions. Why not 54?
It had less to do with preferences than logistics, realities, and political goals. In 1941 the german ostheer and their allies were mobilized. In the summer of 1942, only Army Group South was refitted and mobilized due to shortages (read: Enduring the Whirlwind 1941-1943 and Germany in WW2 series, To the Gates of Stalingrad, From Moscow to Stalingrad covers this as well). Axis allied support was gradually withdrawn after the defeat at Stalingrad.

In the fall/winter of 1944, the situation in Hungary deteriorated greatly and there were armored battles involving the retention of Budapest and Hungary as an axis allies. However, at the same time the German command needed to make a gamble in the West or they were done- the circumstances were very dire for them.

https://www.amazon.com/Enduring-Whirlwi ... 1910777757

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Stugbit » 11 Oct 2018 15:28

Greetings to both citizen Stugbit and the community as a whole. Howdy Stugbit! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Wednesday - October 10, 2018 - 7:04pm, old your truly was mildly surprised with your tongue-in-cheek characterizations of both Brazil and Belarus. The nation of Brazil is anything but a so-called "nowhere place". Brazil is the third largest nation in the Western Hemisphere and THE largest nation on the continent of South America. Brazil is, by ranking anyway, the eighth largest economy on the planet. If the State of California were an independent nation, the Bear Republic would be seventh largest economy on the plant. So in light of that, Brazil stands in pretty good company! Brazil is the world's tenth largest producer of petroleum and you certainly do have world class cities. Yes, Brazil certainly has its problems and issues like any other country, but when compared to the remainder of South America, Brazil is a superpower! Given the progression of time, the nation of Brazil will inevitably ascend from Second World status into First World status. Finally, try to look at the bright side, you could be residing in the "WORKERS PARADISE" of Venezuela! It's just some fraternal food for thought. Incidentally, old Uncle Bob will forego interjecting any commentary about Belarus for the time being. To be polite about it, Belarus is quite a complex issue. Well, that is my latest two Yankee cents worth on this tangential and clearly off topic matter - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in your corner of the ever exotic land that is the Federative Republic of Brazil.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

Dear Uncle Bob,

Thank you for the kind words about my Country. I was being sarcastic when explaining my point to Citizen Jesk. Anyway, you forgot to mention that we won five World Cups. :thumbsup:

My Best Regards

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Stugbit
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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Stugbit » 11 Oct 2018 15:28

Your reasoning is based on a very small amount of knowledge about the war. Therefore, the conclusions are superficial. So often happens, the guy will watch a film about the Battle of Stalingrad and after that considers himself to know the history of the Second World War. What do you know about battles in East Prussia? Nothing. On January 27, Army Group Reinhard commander, on January 29, 4 Army Hossbach commander were sent by Hitler to resign for their intention to withdraw troops from East Prussia, in order to avoid a struggle in isolation from the main forces. The loss of territory is not so terrible as crushing an army into isolated groups.
Dear Jesk Citizen.

Of course, I can`t know everything about the war. I don`t own all the books and I`m far away from the documents. Yet, the writers, the authors I read, they have more access to those things than me. I don`t know how fare your text interpretation skills, but if you understood what I just have writed to you, I`m talking about the whole institutional academic consensus and it`s precisely this consensus that my knowledge is based.

Best Regards.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Stugbit » 11 Oct 2018 16:06

Cult Icon wrote:
11 Oct 2018 13:02
jesk wrote:
10 Oct 2018 20:06

Hitler preferred mini-battles. He constantly crushed the Wehrmacht into small groups. If there are 78 German divisions in Typhoon, no more than 30 in the battles of 1945. This is surprising, considering the conduct of the war in Germany with its developed network of roads and the ability to quickly deploy troops in battle.
Ardennes 24 divisions. Why not 54?
It had less to do with preferences than logistics, realities, and political goals. In 1941 the german ostheer and their allies were mobilized. In the summer of 1942, only Army Group South was refitted and mobilized due to shortages (read: Enduring the Whirlwind 1941-1943 and Germany in WW2 series, To the Gates of Stalingrad, From Moscow to Stalingrad covers this as well). Axis allied support was gradually withdrawn after the defeat at Stalingrad.

In the fall/winter of 1944, the situation in Hungary deteriorated greatly and there were armored battles involving the retention of Budapest and Hungary as an axis allies. However, at the same time the German command needed to make a gamble in the West or they were done- the circumstances were very dire for them.

https://www.amazon.com/Enduring-Whirlwi ... 1910777757
But don`t you think those forces attacking in the Ardennes could have had a much better "kill/death" ratio if put on defense? And I think the Germans sent the rest of these same forces to Hungary months later, by the way.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Oct 2018 17:20

Stugbit wrote:
11 Oct 2018 16:06

But don`t you think those forces attacking in the Ardennes could have had a much better "kill/death" ratio if put on defense? And I think the Germans sent the rest of these same forces to Hungary months later, by the way.
Yes, they would have stiffened the front and delayed the German defeat by some amount of time. As for "kill ratio" it was more variable- the units of the 5th Panzer Army had a good one due to much greater success but the 6th (SS) Army had a bad one in the Ardennes offensive largely due to the struggling of 1.SSLAH and the 12.SS HJ to achieve the primary goals of the operation.

They shifted the Waffen SS Panzer divisions and others from West to East Fronts and did a hasty refitting of these formations circa mid- Jan-Feb 1945.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by BDV » 11 Oct 2018 17:32

Sid Guttridge wrote:
11 Oct 2018 10:19
Hi BDV,

Then am I to assume that you accept Jesk at his own modest self estimate when he writes, "Any historian understands the history of the Second World War worse than me."?

Cheers,

Sid.
And junta is nowhere to be found.

I happen to have the "he's crazy ... crazy as a fox" pov on the politician in discussion.

But that's irrelevant, as current political situations and developments (unless used to illustrate the decision process of this or that government during the period in question) are still irrelevant.

And junta is nowhere to be found.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Oct 2018 18:49

Hi BDV,

I would reply, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. Sorry.

Cheers,

Sid.

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