Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

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Richard Anderson
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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 Oct 2018 02:51

histan wrote:
08 Oct 2018 00:51
In any case, we can make a start.

I apologize for the quality of the images but this is how they came from John Calvin's FTP site - NARA T-78 R-352

This is the overall structure of the Ersatzheer as at 10.08.1944 and so possibly a good start to make changes if you want to take manpower from it and transfer this to the Feldheer.
Technically, that is the schematische kreigsgliederung for Wehrkreis IV, which was a small part of the overall Ersatzheer, but I doubt if that distinction would make much difference to the OPs agenda.

In any case, the Ersatzheer functionally ceased to exist by 9 April 1945, because exactly what the OP advocates was done :lol: , the constituent parts of the training organization of the Ersatzheer were all transferred to the Feldheer, eliminating the capability of the Heer to train and field replacements. See, MI14-149h "Schaffung neuer Ausbildungsmöglichkeiten im Ersatzheer", AHA/Stab II, 9.4.45. The only remaining resources were a few Ersatzabteilungen capable of collecting personnel, organising them as replacement transports and dispatching them to field commands. The only remaining training capability was the few remaining Stammkompanie, which could be expanded to complete training companies by transfer of further personnel from the Feldheer, making Genesene available as NCOs, and drawing personnel from the few remaining shortened training courses. It notes finally that since the Ersatzheer had handed over its entire stock of weapons to the Feldheer, new deliveries were required for forming any new units. None of which happened. By 1 April, the entire Ersatz und Ausbildungs organization of the Ersatzheer numbered just 341,700.

And it didn't make an iota of a difference. It was the proverbial fart in a windstorm at that point.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 08 Oct 2018 05:37

It could not help. These arguments are not even indirectly involved in the outcome of the war. How to tie the sunrise or drunk a bottle of beer. I drank beer, so Germany did not have the opportunity to escape defeat.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Oct 2018 10:45

Hi GdR,

You ask, "..... why the Germans held significant amounts of manpower in Ersatzheer in critical moments of war?"

That has been answered extensively above.

In essence, the field army, the Feldheer, did the fighting and the Ersatzheer provided it with trained replacements. It did not hang on to trained replacements.

Furthermore, the Ersatzheer contained even larger numbers of men who through wounds, age, or infirmity, were not normally considered fit for the front. They were engaged in such activities as recovering their health, or guarding POW camps, where young, fit, healthy, trained men would have been wasted.

All these activities (training, recuperation, guard duties, etc.) were often done while doubling as occupation troops. No other armies in WWII used their training organizations and medical recuperation as part of their occupation forces.

In short, the Ersatzheer was massively overextended and did not hold back trained soldiers from the front at critical points in the war. Its problem was training them adequately for field service given all the other demands on it. Indeed, from the beginning of 1942 the Feldheer was already complaining about the quality of replacements from the Ersatzheer.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 08 Oct 2018 11:45

Doenitz in March, 1945 has offered 250 thousand sailors from the ships for defense of Berlin, but it has become clear, they couldn't be armed. All these thousands and millions of soldiers anything in comparison with terrible mistakes. January 1945 1 Belorussian front of 10 armies, Wehrmacht 9 divisions. Courland 7 armies, 33 divisions. Germany could only lose the war, leaving the soldiers in the occupied countries. Norway and Finland were Germans there and they did not participate in the defense of Germany.
Germany had no chance of losing the war, provided that the entire army was preserved on the territory of the country. In year 9, Arminius did the same. Before the decisive battle, the Roman soldiers were sent to distant garrisons under far-fetched pretexts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... urg_Forest

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 08 Oct 2018 11:53

Michael Kenny wrote:
07 Oct 2018 22:26
jesk wrote:
07 Oct 2018 21:16
Only clear to me that people see 20-30% of a picture of combat operations and on such the incomplete data make amusing opinion. Far from valid.
I asked for references and you point me to a site full of crazy conspiracy theories. Who would believe such rubbish?
It is obvious this man is delusional in the extreme. Your reference is worthless as are your claims about Hitler.
In that link, the author rejects the thesis of readers about Hitler as a relative and agent of the Rothschilds. I showed the link as an example; such an opinion exists and is shared by quite a few people. What's the question. Hundreds of mistakes of Hitler reasonably cast doubt on his sincerity. Unfortunately, I did not remember the link; there a German woman from Berlin told about her life during the war and after. Rumors in Berlin in the last months of the war went, Hitler - an agent of Stalin. People came to such conclusions on the basis of the analysis of military operations. The Germans fought wrong.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Oct 2018 12:46

Hi Jesk,

Can we return to grown-up, fact based discussion of the Ersatzheer, please?

If anyone wants to start a thread entitled "Hitler - Rothschild puppet and Soviet secret agent?", could they do it elsewhere.

Sid.

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Ersatzheer And German PIECEMEAL Strategy - (Well Sort Of But Not Really).

Post by Robert Rojas » 09 Oct 2018 14:45

Greetings to both citizen Sid Guttridge and the community as a whole. Howdy Sid! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Tuesday - October 09, 2018 - 3:46am, from the not so unbiased perspective of old yours truly, what you are digesting IS grown-up AND fact based discussion - at least from the deepest and darkest recesses of citizen Jesk's fervent imagination anyway. Now, whether one laughs, cries or vomits over his perceptions of reality, it can never be denied that there is NEVER A DULL MOMENT when the man engages his keyboard! If for no other reason, that is what makes his contributions such a FUN read. Citizen Jesk is a treasure that keeps on giving and giving! I believe it would be best if we all chalked up his colorful musings to wanting attempts at parody. It's just some friendly food for thought. Well, that's my latest two cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this expansive topic into the realm of the conspiratorial - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :) :P :lol: :wink: 8-) :thumbsup:
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: RE: Ersatzheer And German PIECEMEAL Strategy - (Well Sort Of But Not Really).

Post by jesk » 09 Oct 2018 19:06

Robert Rojas wrote:
09 Oct 2018 14:45
Now, whether one laughs, cries or vomits over his perceptions of reality, it can never be denied that there is NEVER A DULL MOMENT when the man engages his keyboard! If for no other reason, that is what makes his contributions such a FUN read. Citizen Jesk is a treasure that keeps on giving and giving! I believe it would be best if we all chalked up his colorful musings to wanting attempts at parody. It's just some friendly food for thought.
What to give and give. My posts strictly correspond to military reality. How Germany managed to lose the war. In some moments showed an alternative point of view on Hitler’s idiocy. Hitler was a genius!
Last edited by jesk on 09 Oct 2018 19:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 09 Oct 2018 19:10

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Oct 2018 12:46
Hi Jesk,

Can we return to grown-up, fact based discussion of the Ersatzheer, please?

If anyone wants to start a thread entitled "Hitler - Rothschild puppet and Soviet secret agent?", could they do it elsewhere.

Sid.
I did not just write about Hitler-Rothschild. You including, explained the basics of the German strategy. Of almost all who tried to argue with me, do not know and do not understand how the Germans fought. And I know. Best of all in the world! :) Any historian understands the history of the Second World War worse than me. Whatever the motives behind the actions of Hitler.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Stugbit » 10 Oct 2018 04:34

The only feasible option for Germany to delay the Soviet forces a little in the late war (if the Germans acknowledge the defeat was imminent) would be cancelling the Ardennes Offensive.

The offensive was quite much unrealistic by itself, so unrealistic that it failed vehemently. And when you go on offensive, you waste more resources, equipment and men that otherwise could be doing a much better job defending.

Just have a look at the Axis casualties of the Ardennes Offensive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge

They lost more than 500 tanks and 800 aircraft attacking there. This is a large number and those forces were missing in the Ostfront where they could have been much better deployed in the defense. Yet, even with them, though, it would be a very difficult task to hold against the air power and tanks the Soviet were employing at that time.

If they delayed the Soviet a little maybe they could have avoided things like the rape of Berlin and the Allied bombing of Dresden that killed many people who were fleeing the Soviet armies. It wouldn`t avoid, however, the partition of Germany itself, the Berlin Wall and all the Cold War developments that took place after. Germany was meant to be shared between the Allied Powers before the war was over and it was divided by 4 when it happened.

Best regards.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 10 Oct 2018 07:01

Stugbit wrote:
10 Oct 2018 04:34
The only feasible option for Germany to delay the Soviet forces a little in the late war (if the Germans acknowledge the defeat was imminent) would be cancelling the Ardennes Offensive.

The offensive was quite much unrealistic by itself, so unrealistic that it failed vehemently. And when you go on offensive, you waste more resources, equipment and men that otherwise could be doing a much better job defending.

Just have a look at the Axis casualties of the Ardennes Offensive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge

They lost more than 500 tanks and 800 aircraft attacking there. This is a large number and those forces were missing in the Ostfront where they could have been much better deployed in the defense. Yet, even with them, though, it would be a very difficult task to hold against the air power and tanks the Soviet were employing at that time.

If they delayed the Soviet a little maybe they could have avoided things like the rape of Berlin and the Allied bombing of Dresden that killed many people who were fleeing the Soviet armies. It wouldn`t avoid, however, the partition of Germany itself, the Berlin Wall and all the Cold War developments that took place after. Germany was meant to be shared between the Allied Powers before the war was over and it was divided by 4 when it happened.

Best regards.
look at the next subject

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=236953&p=2163216#p2163216

I have written about defeat of Germany in the highest spheres. On this background even Ardennes with their losses will seem a trifle. Germans have placed millions (!) of soldiers outside Germany. It also became the driving force of rout.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 10 Oct 2018 07:14

In January 1945 "Norways" increased. Troops in East Prussia were cut off from the main forces of the Wehrmacht and promptly lost. Far worse than losing territory is the fragmentation of the army into isolated groups. It is always more convenient to smash the enemy in parts.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by jesk » 10 Oct 2018 07:26

Gilles de Rais wrote:
24 Sep 2018 16:12
It is a well known fact that German Army late in the war suffered from a chronic lack of infantry and that resulted in devastating defeats in which great number of soldiers were lost. Knowing that Ersatzheer had 2 572 000 available man in December of 1944, I wonder why this man were not sent to the front before the start of the great offensives like Bagration in June of 1944 and Vistula-Oder operation in January of 1945? If they were sent a few weeks before the start of the offensives, one or two million fresh troops might have stopped the Soviet attacks and that might have influenced the course of the war. Instead, the German High Command decided to keep them in training for a few more weeks and only send them to the front once German armies have been almost destroyed in a vain attempt to restore the frontline. Does this seem to anyone else as a strange decision? For instance, both the Soviets and the Allies had no problems sending hastily trained recruits to the front when the desperate situation demanded such action. Why didn't the Germans utilise the same approach as Soviets in 1941? Was it humanitarian concerns and unwillingness to send untrained soldiers that would suffer appaling casualties? Or was it lack of sufficient weapons and equipment for additional units? Any thoughts?
Returning to the first post in the topic. I wanted to show that Ersatzher has nothing to do with strategy. Any attempts to designate the Wehrmacht within the framework of the theory are meaningless against the background of the incorrect placement of armies and army groups in the squares.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Oct 2018 18:20

Hi Jesk,

You write, "....I know. Best of all the world! Any historian understands the history of the Second World War worse than me....."

You sound remarkably like the current egocentric and self-deluded occupant of the White House!

I would refer you to a Washington Post article entitled, "19 things Donald Trump knows better than anyone else, according to Donald Trump!"

A highly amused Sid.

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Re: Ersatzheer and German peacemeal strategy

Post by Cult Icon » 10 Oct 2018 18:38

Stugbit wrote:
10 Oct 2018 04:34

Just have a look at the Axis casualties of the Ardennes Offensive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge

They lost more than 500 tanks and 800 aircraft attacking there. This is a large number and those forces were missing in the Ostfront where they could have been much better deployed in the defense.
The focal point of the Panzertruppe in the East was in the relief of Budapest (Konrad I, II, II ) come 1945. While these operations were occurring, in the West the german forces of the bulge were on the defensive against the Allied counteroffensive and Operation Nordwind was in action.

I can see a stronger emphasis on keeping Hungary in the war with stronger panzer forces deployed there than historically.

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