The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
User avatar
Gerst
Member
Posts: 821
Joined: 17 Jan 2005 23:14
Location: Burleson, Texas

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by Gerst » 16 Sep 2018 00:47

One more month of good weather would have been enough! The "allies" were the problem, and the weather. The Crimea could have been bypassed also.

User avatar
Robert Rojas
Member
Posts: 2658
Joined: 19 Nov 2002 04:29
Location: Pleasant Hill, California - U.S.A.

RE: The Worst Moment For The Germans On The Eastern Front - (Well Sort Of).

Post by Robert Rojas » 16 Sep 2018 04:26

Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in deference to your point OR points-of-view as articulated in your introductory posting of Sunday - August 26, 2018 - 11:58pm, it is the unabashed opinion of old yours truly that the quintessentially WORST moment for the Germans on the Eastern Front was undoubtedly 03:15am on June 22, 1941. For at that singular moment in time, like Charles the Twelfth of Sweden and Napoleon Bonaparte of France before him, Adolf Hitler would cross the figurative Rubicon and send his victorious legions plunging into the primeval depths of the Rodina to their ignominious doom. Yes folks, there is nothing like acquiescing to the sociopathic machinations of a megalomaniac. Well, that is my initial two cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this waltz into the angst ridden past - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

User avatar
BDV
Financial supporter
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 16:11

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by BDV » 17 Sep 2018 19:32

jesk wrote: There simply Hitler interfered and sabotage turned out.

Never attribute to (Fuhrer) malice that which is adequately explained by (Offizier) stupidity.

P.S.
Tikhvin/Volkhov: 3 armored divisionen, 3 infantry divisionen, VLeeb sends all armor to one direction, all infantry to the other. As a result, infantry does not penetrate to objective, armor does not hold objective.

Soltsy: 3rd motorized in severe difficulty 20 km to North, Erich "armbanduhren" Manstein forges to the EAST, without knowledge of left or right flank. RESULT: 8th Panzer, 20% (ONE FIFTH) of AGN panzerforce gets punked by Sovjet division remnants on the right flank; out of fighting for 6 weeks.

Bryansk: big-mouth-Guderian to busy hunting glory to close the kessel, 3rd and 13th Sovjet Armees escape 50%, 50th Sovjet Armee escapes 100%.

Bustard Hunt, just as operation ends, Offizier that makes this great triumph possible (by withdrawing to defensible line) and getting sovjet attacker stuck, is sentenced to death based on lies of same Erich "armbanduhren" Manstein.

Stalingrad: Fuhrer and "Meier" puts in helping of 800+ transports, these AVERAGE <10 trips per transport in 72 (seventy two, zweiundsiebzig) DAYS of action. LUFTWAFFE transports average less than one trip PER WEEK during Stalingrad.

... and on and on and on.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by jesk » 17 Sep 2018 21:47

Gerst wrote:
16 Sep 2018 00:47
One more month of good weather would have been enough! The "allies" were the problem, and the weather. The Crimea could have been bypassed also.
This is one of the options for seizing Moscow. Von Bock told Halder on July 10 that considered time to attack Moscow exceptionally favorable. Hitler refused the request.
The Crimea could be bypassed also in 1944. The Romanian leadership urged the Crimea to leave, but Hitler stepped in differently.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: RE: The Worst Moment For The Germans On The Eastern Front - (Well Sort Of).

Post by jesk » 17 Sep 2018 21:48

Robert Rojas wrote:
16 Sep 2018 04:26
Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in deference to your point OR points-of-view as articulated in your introductory posting of Sunday - August 26, 2018 - 11:58pm, it is the unabashed opinion of old yours truly that the quintessentially WORST moment for the Germans on the Eastern Front was undoubtedly 03:15am on June 22, 1941. For at that singular moment in time, like Charles the Twelfth of Sweden and Napoleon Bonaparte of France before him, Adolf Hitler would cross the figurative Rubicon and send his victorious legions plunging into the primeval depths of the Rodina to their ignominious doom. Yes folks, there is nothing like acquiescing to the sociopathic machinations of a megalomaniac. Well, that is my initial two cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this waltz into the angst ridden past - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
The Spanish and Portuguese in the 15th century entered South America. Are they also megalomaniacs ?! For 300 years the Mongols occupied Russia. Napoleon had problems with supply and only. He won the Russian army. After the advent of railways, supply issues are no longer relevant.

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by jesk » 17 Sep 2018 22:06

BDV wrote:
17 Sep 2018 19:32
Never attribute to (Fuhrer) malice that which is adequately explained by (Offizier) stupidity.

P.S.
Tikhvin/Volkhov: 3 armored divisionen, 3 infantry divisionen, VLeeb sends all armor to one direction, all infantry to the other. As a result, infantry does not penetrate to objective, armor does not hold objective.
There is practically no difference between tank and infantry divisions. Your speculation about infantry and armor. In fact, the temperature dropped to -40 with the same problems as near Moscow.
Soltsy: 3rd motorized in severe difficulty 20 km to North, Erich "armbanduhren" Manstein forges to the EAST, without knowledge of left or right flank. RESULT: 8th Panzer, 20% (ONE FIFTH) of AGN panzerforce gets punked by Sovjet division remnants on the right flank; out of fighting for 6 weeks.
This decision is only Hitler. The Germans were eager to fight. Then the plan was to advance with three columns. As a result, the freedom of maneuver decreased.
Bryansk: big-mouth-Guderian to busy hunting glory to close the kessel, 3rd and 13th Sovjet Armees escape 50%, 50th Sovjet Armee escapes 100%.
Rifle divisions of the 50th Army lost 80-90% of the composition. Commander Petrov was killed. The Germans were generally unhappy with Hitler's decision to attack Bryansk. They considered this as the dispersion of forces, wanted to make an offensive narrower, for greater probability, the capture of Moscow.

http://militera.lib.ru/h/isaev_av5/03.html
One way or another, on October 7, three armies of the Bryansk Front turned 180 degrees and broke out of encirclement. By October 16, out of the 50th Army, there were 217th (300 men), 299th (400 men), 279th (1500 men), 260th (200 men), 154th 1,200 people) infantry divisions. According to AI Eremenko's report, by October 20, 1941, 1,600 people from the 217th Infantry Division, 1524 from the 290th, and completely two regiments with artillery from the 154th came out to the Belev district. To assess the safety of the connections, you can indicate the number of the 217th Infantry Division as of October 1 - 11,953, the 279th division, before the start of the Typhoon, was 7964 people.

Bustard Hunt, just as operation ends, Offizier that makes this great triumph possible (by withdrawing to defensible line) and getting sovjet attacker stuck, is sentenced to death based on lies of same Erich "armbanduhren" Manstein.
Your desire to slander generals is amusing. They are professionals and were not mistaken at all.
Stalingrad: Fuhrer and "Meier" puts in helping of 800+ transports, these AVERAGE <10 trips per transport in 72 (seventy two, zweiundsiebzig) DAYS of action. LUFTWAFFE transports average less than one trip PER WEEK during Stalingrad.

... and on and on and on.
Goering was mistaken. He is not a general at least. But the chief of the general staff, Zeitler categorically demanded the withdrawal of 6 army from the boiler. Hitler and a month later, when the inability of aviation was already visible, did not agree to a breakthrough.

User avatar
BDV
Financial supporter
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 16:11

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by BDV » 17 Sep 2018 22:26

jesk wrote:Your desire to slander generals is amusing. They are professionals and were not mistaken at all.
It is Manstein order, then complaint, that leads to execution of von Sponneck.

Either von Sponneck was good, then Manstein is a disgusting person.
OR
Manstein was right then there are coward traitor Korps commanders.

Goering was mistaken. He is not a general at least. But the chief of the general staff, Zeitler categorically demanded the withdrawal of 6 army from the boiler. Hitler and a month later, when the inability of aviation was already visible, did not agree to a breakthrough.
Jukoff resign when Djugashvilli withdraws troop NOT from Kieff kessel. Do Zeitler resign?

Incompetent, criminal, and criminally incompetent. And LIARS (FuhrerSchuldLegende). Greatest crime of Schicklgruber is putting fate of 80 million deutsch in hand of such low class characters.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by jesk » 18 Sep 2018 06:10

BDV wrote:
17 Sep 2018 22:26
It is Manstein order, then complaint, that leads to execution of von Sponneck.

Either von Sponneck was good, then Manstein is a disgusting person.
OR
Manstein was right then there are coward traitor Korps commanders.
Manstein is not to blame. He simply removed him from the command. Zhukov, Rokossovsky dismissed too. Then there was a court chaired by Goering and the verdict was replaced by Hitler for 6 years in prison. After July 20, 1944, Himmler decided to execute Sponeck at the same time.
Jukoff resign when Djugashvilli withdraws troop NOT from Kieff kessel. Do Zeitler resign?

Incompetent, criminal, and criminally incompetent. And LIARS (FuhrerSchuldLegende). Greatest crime of Schicklgruber is putting fate of 80 million deutsch in hand of such low class characters.
You on a subject of World War II aren't able to think. Your posts set of a nonsense.The usual phenomenon in fact, every loader, driver, engineer has an idea of the war. Isaev by the way calls into question Zhukov's request to leave Kiev. That has thought up.

User avatar
Robert Rojas
Member
Posts: 2658
Joined: 19 Nov 2002 04:29
Location: Pleasant Hill, California - U.S.A.

RE: The Worst Moment For The Germans On The Eastern Front - (Well Sort Of).

Post by Robert Rojas » 18 Sep 2018 06:15

Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in light of your posting of Monday - September 17, 2018 - 12:48pm, old yours truly will defer to the ongoing dialogue that you are having with citizen Iron Machine regarding the intricate complexities of the POST COLUMBIAN AMERICAS. Beyond that, the one point of commonality among Charles the Twelfth of Sweden, Napoleon Bonaparte of France and Adolf Hitler of National Socialist Germany was their inordinate craving for glory. In short, THEIR wars were an egocentric expression of themselves at the unfortunate expense of those wretched souls who had to fight them. When the time and the financial resources avail themselves, it might not be a terribly bad idea if you procured a copy of Adolf Hitler's political primer entitled as MEIN KAMPF. It just "MIGHT" provide you with an insight or two regarding the mind set of the all knowing Bohemian Corporal. Well, that's my latest two cents or pfennigs worth on this waltz into the angst ridden past OR until this thread is inevitably locked by the forum's management. As always. I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: RE: The Worst Moment For The Germans On The Eastern Front - (Well Sort Of).

Post by jesk » 18 Sep 2018 08:45

Robert Rojas wrote:
18 Sep 2018 06:15
old yours truly will defer to the ongoing dialogue that you are having with citizen Iron Machine regarding the intricate complexities of the POST COLUMBIAN AMERICAS.
The Spaniards attacked South America and they won! They did it. The accusation of Hitler in the attack on Russia, unjustifiably exalt her. Russia is such a fortress, such a fortress. You can not even think about war with it.
Beyond that, the one point of commonality among Charles the Twelfth of Sweden, Napoleon Bonaparte of France and Adolf Hitler of National Socialist Germany was their inordinate craving for glory. In short, THEIR wars were an egocentric expression of themselves at the unfortunate expense of those wretched souls who had to fight them. When the time and the financial resources avail themselves, it might not be a terribly bad idea if you procured a copy of Adolf Hitler's political primer entitled as MEIN KAMPF. It just "MIGHT" provide you with an insight or two regarding the mind set of the all knowing Bohemian Corporal. Well, that's my latest two cents or pfennigs worth on this waltz into the angst ridden past OR until this thread is inevitably locked by the forum's management.

You have high self-esteem. Have stated the version of the worst moment, dissenters wish to shut up mouths. As for Hitler, he could lie. Cheating is often used by scammers, for example, in the financial sphere. Words mask true intentions.
Scammers exist!

Brits Beware: Scammers Pretend to Be Authorized Finance Firm in Latest Scam
Scammers are utilizing details of authorized firms to try to persuade clients they are a legit provider of financial services

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by jesk » 18 Sep 2018 09:08

Mistakes of Hitler very primitive. Too even for the idiot and it sets thinking! I will quote still, people are coming and not in the subject ...

1933-37-45 HITLER THE REAL WINNER OF GERMANY

HITLER WAS THE MAIN SECRET ENEMY OF GERMANY

(He saved Russia from destruction: Hitler, as the savior of Russia, is the national hero of Russia and this is a real occasion for the Russian tradition to portray him as the Holy and Redeemer of ... well, let's say from "Hitlerism" or what?)

Remake Chapters from the Artillery book

The strategic absurdity of German history

The main enemy of Hitler Germany - Comrade Adolf A. Hitler: everything that he did as supreme commander in chief and as head of state, should lead to one goal. This goal - the defeat of the German army and defeat in the war of the German state. These actions were the product of conscious willful choice.

Despite the paranoid tone of such a statement, it logically inevitably follows from all known events of the history of the Second World War.

For anyone who was seriously interested in the war of 1939-1945 and read the postwar literature from all directions - from textbooks and analytical reports to the memoirs of participants and the works of art of the front-line writers (naturally, from the "one" and this side) - a completely permissible evaluation of war. This is not a confrontation of enemies, but the use of mistakes of the enemy. And these mistakes are inexplicably primitive, they could be avoided, the result of an erroneous decision was predictable, everything is clear, but ... but nothing.

Hitler was a secret enemy of Germany.

But the fact is that everyone forgets the banal - the leader has not always been a leader, and if there are transhistorical structures that plan a story, then it is required to identify a potential leader, to catch him in a difficult situation (or to create it) and ... to buy? Recruit, convince. While we do not concern ourselves with the mystical plan, although there is no need to describe the mysticism of Hitler and all the leaders of the Third Reich, so much has been said about it that it has become a banality.

Here is a little different: one secret structure overcharges someone from another. As heads of the football club they buy out at least the forward of the team, the leader or the Fiihrer of the nation.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

User avatar
BDV
Financial supporter
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 16:11

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by BDV » 18 Sep 2018 12:57

jesk wrote:Manstein is not to blame. He simply removed him from the command. Zhukov, Rokossovsky dismissed too. Then there was a court chaired by Goering and the verdict was replaced by Hitler for 6 years in prison. After July 20, 1944, Himmler decided to execute Sponeck at the same time.
Schicklgruber-Sündenbock schlägt wieder zu!!

without Manstein complaint, no insubordination.
without insubordination, no trial.
without trial, no execution.
You on a subject of World War II aren't able to think. Your posts set of a nonsense. The usual phenomenon in fact, every loader, driver, engineer has an idea of the war. Isaev by the way calls into question Zhukov's request to leave Kiev. That has thought up.
ad hominem, useless to debate.

Jukoff resign when Djugashvilli withdraws troop NOT from Kieff kessel. Do Zeitler resign?

Ja/Nein?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by jesk » 18 Sep 2018 13:46

BDV wrote:
18 Sep 2018 12:57
Schicklgruber-Sündenbock schlägt wieder zu!!

without Manstein complaint, no insubordination.
without insubordination, no trial.
without trial, no execution.
Manstein ousted him from the command. Hitler ordered to arrange a trial against Shponek. It's all trifles and in general nothing says.
ad hominem, useless to debate.
Your words at the verge of stupidity. For example, you wrote about the merger of two agencies and allegedly the inability to do this because of Demiansk and Rzhev striking to encircle the Soviet troops. This fantasy also testifies to the absolute ignorance of the militant situation.
BDV wrote:
10 Sep 2018 22:01
jesk wrote:
BDV wrote: likely single leadership AGC-AGN is needed.
Nothing depended of them. Global decisions were taken personally by Hitler.
großer Raum between "Global decisions" and "Nothing depended". If decision made to eliminate Soviet units west of Olenino-Demjansk line (the only excuse to keep Demjansk vanity project), task is too complex to be coordinated between two different commands (AGN-AGC).

Also, FuhrerSchuldLegende excuses commanders - incompetent, criminal, and criminally incompetent without regard to truth and justice.
(see Erich "einhundertzwanzig Armbanduhren" Manstein who manages to be all 3)

These are school statements. I replied not to look like a loser, but the theses copied your entry into the topic from first post.
BDV wrote:
17 Sep 2018 19:32
jesk wrote: There simply Hitler interfered and sabotage turned out.

Never attribute to (Fuhrer) malice that which is adequately explained by (Offizier) stupidity.

P.S.
Tikhvin/Volkhov: 3 armored divisionen, 3 infantry divisionen, VLeeb sends all armor to one direction, all infantry to the other. As a result, infantry does not penetrate to objective, armor does not hold objective.

Soltsy: 3rd motorized in severe difficulty 20 km to North, Erich "armbanduhren" Manstein forges to the EAST, without knowledge of left or right flank. RESULT: 8th Panzer, 20% (ONE FIFTH) of AGN panzerforce gets punked by Sovjet division remnants on the right flank; out of fighting for 6 weeks.

Bryansk: big-mouth-Guderian to busy hunting glory to close the kessel, 3rd and 13th Sovjet Armees escape 50%, 50th Sovjet Armee escapes 100%.

Bustard Hunt, just as operation ends, Offizier that makes this great triumph possible (by withdrawing to defensible line) and getting sovjet attacker stuck, is sentenced to death based on lies of same Erich "armbanduhren" Manstein.

Stalingrad: Fuhrer and "Meier" puts in helping of 800+ transports, these AVERAGE <10 trips per transport in 72 (seventy two, zweiundsiebzig) DAYS of action. LUFTWAFFE transports average less than one trip PER WEEK during Stalingrad.

... and on and on and on.
Jukoff resign when Djugashvilli withdraws troop NOT from Kieff kessel. Do Zeitler resign?

Ja/Nein?
There is no confirmation to Zhukov's words. Isaev suggested that Zhukov could lie.

User avatar
BDV
Financial supporter
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 16:11

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by BDV » 18 Sep 2018 14:55

My questions are simple.


The competent and patriotic German Zietler, did he resign, when ordered wrong things by Fuhrer? Yes? No?

Did Jucoff resign? Yes? No?

Who is "good," Manstein or von Sponeck?


Ignoring the favourable outcomes of Fuhrer decisions (Kieff kessel for the South attack order, Taifun encirclements for foregoing Leningrad Storming) and ignoring bad outcomes of officer decisions is justified because? Fuhrer destroyed Germany by ordering operations that lead to capture of millions of Sovjets? Fuhrer destroyed Germany by ordering operations that if successfully completed would have led Sovjet weapons manufacturing impossibility (Tikhvin)? Who death-marched millions of able-bodied POW, who could have been used as munitions-production slaves (Posen speech)?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: The worst moment for Germans on the Eastern front

Post by jesk » 18 Sep 2018 19:26

BDV wrote:
18 Sep 2018 14:55
My questions are simple.


The competent and patriotic German Zietler, did he resign, when ordered wrong things by Fuhrer? Yes? No?

Did Jucoff resign? Yes? No?

Who is "good," Manstein or von Sponeck?
The question of the German mentality matters. Submission to the Fuhrer for them essentially, irrespective of an order essence. Perhaps this explains the amazing resignation of Germans with Hitler at the head.
Zhukov has nothing to do with it. Leaving of Kiev and resignation aren't proved. Just like Zhukov invented the execution of Konev, from which he allegedly saved him.
Manshein is very good. It is so.
Ignoring the favourable outcomes of Fuhrer decisions (Kieff kessel for the South attack order, Taifun encirclements for foregoing Leningrad Storming) and ignoring bad outcomes of officer decisions is justified because? Fuhrer destroyed Germany by ordering operations that lead to capture of millions of Sovjets? Fuhrer destroyed Germany by ordering operations that if successfully completed would have led Sovjet weapons manufacturing impossibility (Tikhvin)? Who death-marched millions of able-bodied POW, who could have been used as munitions-production slaves (Posen speech)?
Again you demonstrate ignorance of the situation. July 9, the Germans were 15 km from Kiev. Hitler ordered to bypass Kiev and advance south. Typhoon is too late. Read Halder's diary at least. Von Bock's background is possible. He insisted on an attack on Moscow in July. The analysis of military operations on your side, no. Absolutely not in the subject.

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”