The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

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AdolfDettmer
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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AdolfDettmer » 29 Oct 2018 19:17

Can you point to any offensive campaign in mountainous terrain in which the Wehrmacht was impressive?

Notably, as related to Fall Blau, the Wehrmacht had middling success then a stalemate...

Oddly just like what occurred in Korea with the UN troops vs the KPA and Chinese armies.

But again, the only reason this discussion is occurring is because you veered the discussion to describing the American infantry as inferior, and used pretty crappy examples to prove your point.

That inferior American Infantry pushed the Wehrmacht back to the Elbe with relative ease and took the leading role in the destruction of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by jesk » 30 Oct 2018 04:24

AdolfDettmer wrote:
29 Oct 2018 19:17
Can you point to any offensive campaign in mountainous terrain in which the Wehrmacht was impressive?
It was discussed in this topic. 11, 4 panzer armies, Italian mountain corps Hitler removed from the Caucasus. After regrouping, on September 25, the second phase of the offensive on Tuapse began. But the climate was not taken into account. The colder, the more rain and related problems.
Notably, as related to Fall Blau, the Wehrmacht had middling success then a stalemate...

Oddly just like what occurred in Korea with the UN troops vs the KPA and Chinese armies.

But again, the only reason this discussion is occurring is because you veered the discussion to describing the American infantry as inferior, and used pretty crappy examples to prove your point.

That inferior American Infantry pushed the Wehrmacht back to the Elbe with relative ease and took the leading role in the destruction of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.
The Red Army for 2 weeks passed 600 km from Vistula to Oder. Allies 2 months could not break through the defense in Normandy. And only when Hitler made a mistake could they do it.

In addition to Korea and Vietnam, battles for Iwo Jima, Okinawa with overwhelming superiority, could not quickly solve the problem. The Americans only Hitler won and no one else. More air raids forced the Japanese to capitulate. But they also looked at Hitler. If he gave up, we can too.

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Post by Robert Rojas » 30 Oct 2018 06:50

Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in deference to your point OR points-of-view as colorfully "articulated" within your varied postings of Saturday - October 27, 2018 - 1:42am / Sunday - October 28, 2018 - 12:10pm / Sunday - October 28, 2018 - 12:22pm / Sunday - October 28, 2018 - 8:37pm / Monday - October 29, 2018 - 7:24pm, old yours truly must duly concede that your disparate contributions into the body of this thread has been quite a literary treat into OFF TOPIC obfuscating equivocation. Now, given the purported flaccidity of the common Yankee ground pounder, would you care to explain to the neighborhood-at-large why the ideological keepers of Marxism Leninism NEVER opted to unleash its mechanized legions against the proverbial "DARK FORCES" of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization? From the formal institution of the Atlantic Alliance on April 04, 1949 until the ignominious dissolution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on December 26, 1991, the Kremlin's apparatchiks had more than their fair share of golden opportunities to initiate the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR OF EUROPEAN LIBERATION. Assuming that their perceptions of the SUBPAR martial skills of the United States of Army were essentially correct, is there some overriding reason OR reasons why the much vaunted Soviet Army was never given the order to burst through the Fulda and Hof Gaps to eviscerate the Yankees attempting to defend the environs of Southwest Germany? Finally, just to sate my personal curiosity, have you ever served in a military establishment? If so, have you ever served in a combat arm? If so, have you ever served in an infantry formation? If so, were you ever just a common mud rolling grunt? Your answers to those questions just "MIGHT" provide your readership with a wee bit of illumination about your not so post Soviet world view. It's just some sobering food for thought. Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this "discussion" into THE HEERESGRUPPE: A MILITARY PLANNING IN FALL BLAU - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner White Russia.

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Uncle Bob :idea: :|
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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AdolfDettmer » 30 Oct 2018 13:01

jesk wrote:
30 Oct 2018 04:24
AdolfDettmer wrote:
29 Oct 2018 19:17
Can you point to any offensive campaign in mountainous terrain in which the Wehrmacht was impressive?
It was discussed in this topic. 11, 4 panzer armies, Italian mountain corps Hitler removed from the Caucasus. After regrouping, on September 25, the second phase of the offensive on Tuapse began. But the climate was not taken into account. The colder, the more rain and related problems.
Notably, as related to Fall Blau, the Wehrmacht had middling success then a stalemate...

Oddly just like what occurred in Korea with the UN troops vs the KPA and Chinese armies.

But again, the only reason this discussion is occurring is because you veered the discussion to describing the American infantry as inferior, and used pretty crappy examples to prove your point.

That inferior American Infantry pushed the Wehrmacht back to the Elbe with relative ease and took the leading role in the destruction of the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.
The Red Army for 2 weeks passed 600 km from Vistula to Oder. Allies 2 months could not break through the defense in Normandy. And only when Hitler made a mistake could they do it.

In addition to Korea and Vietnam, battles for Iwo Jima, Okinawa with overwhelming superiority, could not quickly solve the problem. The Americans only Hitler won and no one else. More air raids forced the Japanese to capitulate. But they also looked at Hitler. If he gave up, we can too.
It’s amazing how every discussion with a Wehraboo always turns into how the only reason the Wehrmacht lost was because of Hitler.

Not that they were beat by a better foe.

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AdolfDettmer » 30 Oct 2018 13:03

Also, my dear departed friend Ethelred Horn, field commissioned on Iwo Jima shared with me-

“Yeah, it took us a while, but why would we throw guys lives away when we knew we were going to win anyways?”

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by jesk » 30 Oct 2018 21:41

AdolfDettmer wrote:
30 Oct 2018 13:01
It’s amazing how every discussion with a Wehraboo always turns into how the only reason the Wehrmacht lost was because of Hitler.

Not that they were beat by a better foe.
Without Hitler, the picture of the story is cut off. Conclusions are often incorrect, based on fragmentary information. For example, sources are hardly mentioned, Hitler’s expectation in April 1945 of the main attack in Czechoslovakia. This mistake facilitated the advance of Soviet troops to Berlin. Without Czechoslovakia and Hitler can not see the real picture.
Also, my dear departed friend Ethelred Horn, field commissioned on Iwo Jima shared with me-

“Yeah, it took us a while, but why would we throw guys lives away when we knew we were going to win anyways?”
Positional battles took place in the First World War. But Americans in war with Asian armies were not capable. In the summer of 1941 the British and Russians occupied Iran. The natives tried to resist, they failed.

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by BDV » 02 Nov 2018 03:56

jesk wrote: Without Hitler, the picture of the story is cut off. Conclusions are often incorrect, based on fragmentary information. For example, sources are hardly mentioned, Hitler’s expectation in April 1945 of the main attack in Czechoslovakia. This mistake facilitated the advance of Soviet troops to Berlin. Without Czechoslovakia and Hitler can not see the real picture.
But Skoda factories are in Prague, not Berlin.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by Kelvin » 02 Nov 2018 05:17

BDV wrote:
02 Nov 2018 03:56
jesk wrote: Without Hitler, the picture of the story is cut off. Conclusions are often incorrect, based on fragmentary information. For example, sources are hardly mentioned, Hitler’s expectation in April 1945 of the main attack in Czechoslovakia. This mistake facilitated the advance of Soviet troops to Berlin. Without Czechoslovakia and Hitler can not see the real picture.
But Skoda factories are in Prague, not Berlin.
This is moment whether Hitler took right option is does'nt matter. The loss of Ruhr and Silesia industrial zones made German cannot go on any longer. Behind the back of Berlin was Anglo-Amercian Troop and arrvial or reinforcement of Heeresgruppe Mitte from Czechoslovakia was useless. In this period, equipment status of Heeresgruppe Vistula is much better than other HG except Heeresgruppe C in northern Italy.

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AbollonPolweder » 02 Nov 2018 16:42

AdolfDettmer wrote:
30 Oct 2018 13:01

It’s amazing how every discussion with a Wehraboo always turns into how the only reason the Wehrmacht lost was because of Hitler.

Not that they were beat by a better foe.
It’s not so amazing as it seems. What do you mean by using these words :better foe? Better trained, skilled? Or more courageous? Or just a merely quantitative superiority? This is the point! Somebody said that Wehrmacht was approximately equal to the number of Red Army's troops. But do not forget that Wehrmacht advanced! So it should have prevailed at least 3:1.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AdolfDettmer » 02 Nov 2018 21:46

AbollonPolweder wrote:
02 Nov 2018 16:42
AdolfDettmer wrote:
30 Oct 2018 13:01

It’s amazing how every discussion with a Wehraboo always turns into how the only reason the Wehrmacht lost was because of Hitler.

Not that they were beat by a better foe.
It’s not so amazing as it seems. What do you mean by using these words :better foe? Better trained, skilled? Or more courageous? Or just a merely quantitative superiority? This is the point! Somebody said that Wehrmacht was approximately equal to the number of Red Army's troops. But do not forget that Wehrmacht advanced! So it should have prevailed at least 3:1.
I wouldn’t say it’s a subjective statement. The Third Reich doesn’t exist anymore, every Allied power does.

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AdolfDettmer » 02 Nov 2018 21:52

jesk wrote:
30 Oct 2018 21:41
AdolfDettmer wrote:
30 Oct 2018 13:01
It’s amazing how every discussion with a Wehraboo always turns into how the only reason the Wehrmacht lost was because of Hitler.

Not that they were beat by a better foe.
Without Hitler, the picture of the story is cut off. Conclusions are often incorrect, based on fragmentary information. For example, sources are hardly mentioned, Hitler’s expectation in April 1945 of the main attack in Czechoslovakia. This mistake facilitated the advance of Soviet troops to Berlin. Without Czechoslovakia and Hitler can not see the real picture.
Also, my dear departed friend Ethelred Horn, field commissioned on Iwo Jima shared with me-

“Yeah, it took us a while, but why would we throw guys lives away when we knew we were going to win anyways?”
Positional battles took place in the First World War. But Americans in war with Asian armies were not capable. In the summer of 1941 the British and Russians occupied Iran. The natives tried to resist, they failed.
What positional battles are you talking about the Americans being incapable of winning? I’m struggling to come up with any battle the NVA won in a conventional manner.

And again, if you’re pointing to Korea, you’re attempting to ignore the fact the United States were not the majority of troops fighting the DPRK or China, and even then, we achieved our war aim which was the preservation of the democratic South Korea.

And I think our record against the Japanese shows we ere perfectly capable of beating them.

But this digression from the topic is tiring, the quality of American troops and the fighting in the Korean and Vietnam wars has zero bearing on the utter incompetence shown by the OKH or the brilliant job by Soviet commanders during Fall Blau (depending on your point of view of the reasons for the failure of the offensive.)

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AbollonPolweder » 02 Nov 2018 22:26

AdolfDettmer wrote:
02 Nov 2018 21:46
The Third Reich doesn’t exist anymore, every Allied power does.
Every Allied power was therefore "better foe" than Third Reich. Right?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AdolfDettmer » 03 Nov 2018 00:24

AbollonPolweder wrote:
02 Nov 2018 22:26
AdolfDettmer wrote:
02 Nov 2018 21:46
The Third Reich doesn’t exist anymore, every Allied power does.
Every Allied power was therefore "better foe" than Third Reich. Right?
Well I’d certainly suggest those who win were more ably led, better equipped and supplied, and most importantly they were the winners.

It wasn’t Churchill/Stalin/Truman/DeGaulle trapped like a rat, defended by boys, who ended up splattering their brains all over their delusional newlywed wife.

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by AdolfDettmer » 03 Nov 2018 00:26

AbollonPolweder wrote:
02 Nov 2018 22:26
AdolfDettmer wrote:
02 Nov 2018 21:46
The Third Reich doesn’t exist anymore, every Allied power does.
Every Allied power was therefore "better foe" than Third Reich. Right?
Well I’d certainly suggest those who win were more ably led, better equipped and supplied, and most importantly they were the winners.

It wasn’t Churchill/Stalin/Truman/DeGaulle trapped like a rat, defended by boys, who ended up splattering their brains all over their delusional newlywed wife.

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Re: The Heeresgruppe A military planning in Fall Blau.

Post by jesk » 03 Nov 2018 09:04

AdolfDettmer wrote:
02 Nov 2018 21:52
jesk wrote:
30 Oct 2018 21:41
AdolfDettmer wrote:
30 Oct 2018 13:01
It’s amazing how every discussion with a Wehraboo always turns into how the only reason the Wehrmacht lost was because of Hitler.

Not that they were beat by a better foe.
Without Hitler, the picture of the story is cut off. Conclusions are often incorrect, based on fragmentary information. For example, sources are hardly mentioned, Hitler’s expectation in April 1945 of the main attack in Czechoslovakia. This mistake facilitated the advance of Soviet troops to Berlin. Without Czechoslovakia and Hitler can not see the real picture.
Also, my dear departed friend Ethelred Horn, field commissioned on Iwo Jima shared with me-

“Yeah, it took us a while, but why would we throw guys lives away when we knew we were going to win anyways?”
Positional battles took place in the First World War. But Americans in war with Asian armies were not capable. In the summer of 1941 the British and Russians occupied Iran. The natives tried to resist, they failed.
What positional battles are you talking about the Americans being incapable of winning? I’m struggling to come up with any battle the NVA won in a conventional manner.

And again, if you’re pointing to Korea, you’re attempting to ignore the fact the United States were not the majority of troops fighting the DPRK or China, and even then, we achieved our war aim which was the preservation of the democratic South Korea.

And I think our record against the Japanese shows we ere perfectly capable of beating them.

But this digression from the topic is tiring, the quality of American troops and the fighting in the Korean and Vietnam wars has zero bearing on the utter incompetence shown by the OKH or the brilliant job by Soviet commanders during Fall Blau (depending on your point of view of the reasons for the failure of the offensive.)
You just get bored analysis deeper than the surface. Brilliant job, OKH incompetence, preservation of a democratic South Korea. The Americans were able to defeat Germany and Hitler, but now Korea and Vietnam, as well as the defeat of the democratic armies in the fight against Mao in China, pointed out to many people the chance of becoming the USA as a superpower. Hitler appointed Russians and Americans to rule the world; in fact, they did not have the opportunity to appear.

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