Different German Oil Strategy

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 4146
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 21:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Richard Anderson » 20 Jan 2019 21:57

ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 16:47
There were /are 2 theories about the German economy :
I'm sorry, but volume and exact page numbers please, for where the USSBS expresses those two infantile theories.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by jesk » 21 Jan 2019 07:24

ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:39
About the butter consumption : if it was 16 lb = 8kg, it proves my point that butter was a luxury .
Now in Europe in the first place France 8 kg, the second is Germany 6.

http://www.dairynews.ru/news/potrebleni ... niya-.html

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Hanny » 21 Jan 2019 09:59

ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:39
First,you said that it was 45 % for the Germans, now you are saying that it was 43 % for workers .There is a big difference between both .
Your not following what is written by kershaw etc, and what it refers too. The working class of urban Germans ( c 25million represented by the Labour front) used butter as a staple food stuff in their diet, since they were at the lower end of national income, represented by the labour Front, when the Reich wanted to set the price of butter at level it wanted, as it did not want to have to import it in the first place, to drive down consumption it priced it beyond the means to purchase of the lower income workers. Reich wanted to know how many it effected and what price to set to make it a luxury for that wage income, instead of a staple. End result was strikes against food prices in late 36 ( price set on butter by Rreich) and being sent to the concentration camps. That Reich report showed in 36 43% of Labour front workers income went on food. It uses a statistical sample with a c95% accuracy.

For all German families, another Reich report, used 29 staple foodstuffs of which butter was but one. It found that in 1936 45% of German family income was expended on food. It used a Sample base of 2,496 familys, using all income brackets, and was again c95% acurate.

Luxury is a relative term, butter is a staple in cooking. Butter never was a luxury in Germany pre war, but policy made it expensive for the lower income earners, because the Nazis did not want to have to import it. Butter was roughly the same as 12 eggs, does that make eggs a luxury.

Please read the authours books you misquote from as it will save me from writting it out for you.
Tooze pages 142 onwards/
In 1936, with the German economy at full employment, 14.5 million people, 62 per cent of all German taxpayers, reported annual incomes of less than 1,500 Reichsmarks, corresponding to weekly earnings of just over 30 Reichsmarks A further 21 per cent, or 5 million white-collar and blue- collar workers, reported annual incomes of between 1,500 and 2,400 Reichsmarks (weekly earnings of between 30 and 50 Reichsmarks). Only 17 per cent of all taxpayers recorded incomes of more than 2,400 Reichsmarks, or 50 Reichsmarks per week.

ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:39
About the butter consumption : if it was 16 lb = 8kg, it proves my point that butter was a luxury .
No, you have shown you not aware of the difference between a staple food stuff and a luxury. Is butter a luxury in todays Germany, no its staple foodstuff. Try cooking without it. Germans in 36 no longer had it, as it was no longer imported, and its price was set by the ministry at a level prohibitive but for the med to high tier income earners. Goring gave orders to stop imports, as part of his speech on guns and butter, Hitler very sensitive to comments about dissatisfaction with this, and the food strikes, secretly tells Schacht to release funds to allow butter and fats to be imported.
ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:39
I am still waiting on a proof for the butter consumption in Germany , and, Walter Nash is not a proof .
Reich statistics and UK Import and domestic production statistics were used in Parliament. You have had your answer, more than once, and you ought not ask it in the first place as the authors you misquote from have it in there works. One used the Reich statistical yearbook another the league of nations statistics.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... s-and-oils

1934. 1935 1936.
In 1,000 tons (metric).
Production:
Butter 424 430 445
Net Imports:
Butter 61 71 78
Consumption:
Butter 485 501 523


Dont expect from others what you dont practice yourself

post 231 and 229 i asked and received nada.

Tooze uses and accepts production numbers from Harrison, kindly explain how Toozes military expenditure imputs, correlates to those production numbers, being as they indicate a vastly greater expenditure to obtain the same outputs.


Moving on as you have no clue about economics, your post of 232 was the finale straw.
Last edited by Hanny on 21 Jan 2019 11:56, edited 5 times in total.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Boby
Member
Posts: 2653
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 17:22
Location: Spain

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Boby » 21 Jan 2019 10:23

Hanny wrote:Germans in 36 no longer had it, as it was no longer imported and its price was set by the ministry at a level prohibitive but for the med to high tier income earners.
1936 = 97,7 mill. RM
1937 = 115
1938 = 121,4 (Reichsgebiet)
1939 = 116,6 (ibid)
Source: Statistisches Jahrbuch für das Deutsche Reich

Once again Hanny is showing is lack of knowledge.

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Hanny » 21 Jan 2019 10:55

Boby wrote:
21 Jan 2019 10:23
Hanny wrote:Germans in 36 no longer had it, as it was no longer imported and its price was set by the ministry at a level prohibitive but for the med to high tier income earners.
1936 = 97,7 mill. RM
1937 = 115
1938 = 121,4 (Reichsgebiet)
1939 = 116,6 (ibid)
Source: Statistisches Jahrbuch für das Deutsche Reich

Once again Hanny is showing is lack of knowledge.
Your reading and comprehension impaired, again, and again. Poor impulse control strikes again.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Boby
Member
Posts: 2653
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 17:22
Location: Spain

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Boby » 21 Jan 2019 11:00

What was no longer imported Hanny?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 11696
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by ljadw » 21 Jan 2019 11:58

Richard Anderson wrote:
20 Jan 2019 21:57
ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 16:47
There were /are 2 theories about the German economy :
I'm sorry, but volume and exact page numbers please, for where the USSBS expresses those two infantile theories.
For the theory of a peace economy in war time til the advent of Speer :
see P 2 of the report,where is written the following :
''Study of German war production data as well as interrogation of those who were in charge of rearmament at the time leaves no doubt that until the defeat at Moscow,German industry was incompletely mobilized and that in fact Germany did not foresee the need for full economic mobilisation . ''
This is parrotting what Wagenführ and Speer had whispered into the USSBS ears .
Later about the other theory = War economy in peace time (= before the war )

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Hanny » 21 Jan 2019 11:59

Boby wrote:
21 Jan 2019 11:00
What was no longer imported Hanny?
See post 214, first sentence.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 11696
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by ljadw » 21 Jan 2019 12:03

Hanny wrote:
21 Jan 2019 09:59
ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:39
First,you said that it was 45 % for the Germans, now you are saying that it was 43 % for workers .There is a big difference between both .
Your not following what is written by kershaw etc, and what it refers too. The working class of urban Germans ( c 25million represented by the Labour front) used butter as a staple food stuff in their diet, since they were at the lower end of national income, represented by the labour Front, when the Reich wanted to set the price of butter at level it wanted, as it did not want to have to import it in the first place, to drive down consumption it priced it beyond the means to purchase of the lower income workers. Reich wanted to know how many it effected and what price to set to make it a luxury for that wage income, instead of a staple. End result was strikes against food prices in late 36 ( price set on butter by Rreich) and being sent to the concentration camps. That Reich report showed in 36 43% of Labour front workers income went on food. It uses a statistical sample with a c95% accuracy.

For all German families, another Reich report, used 29 staple foodstuffs of which butter was but one. It found that in 1936 45% of German family income was expended on food. It used a Sample base of 2,496 familys, using all income brackets, and was again c95% acurate.

Luxury is a relative term, butter is a staple in cooking. Butter never was a luxury in Germany pre war, but policy made it expensive for the lower income earners, because the Nazis did not want to have to import it. Butter was roughly the same as 12 eggs, does that make eggs a luxury.

Please read the authours books you misquote from as it will save me from writting it out for you.
Tooze pages 142 onwards/
In 1936, with the German economy at full employment, 14.5 million people, 62 per cent of all German taxpayers, reported annual incomes of less than 1,500 Reichsmarks, corresponding to weekly earnings of just over 30 Reichsmarks A further 21 per cent, or 5 million white-collar and blue- collar workers, reported annual incomes of between 1,500 and 2,400 Reichsmarks (weekly earnings of between 30 and 50 Reichsmarks). Only 17 per cent of all taxpayers recorded incomes of more than 2,400 Reichsmarks, or 50 Reichsmarks per week.

ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:39
About the butter consumption : if it was 16 lb = 8kg, it proves my point that butter was a luxury .
No, you have shown you not aware of the difference between a staple food stuff and a luxury. Is butter a luxury in todays Germany, no its staple foodstuff. Try cooking without it. Germans in 36 no longer had it, as it was no longer imported, and its price was set by the ministry at a level prohibitive but for the med to high tier income earners. Goring gave orders to stop imports, as part of his speech on guns and butter, Hitler very sensitive to comments about dissatisfaction with this, and the food strikes, secretly tells Schacht to release funds to allow butter and fats to be imported.
ljadw wrote:
20 Jan 2019 19:39
I am still waiting on a proof for the butter consumption in Germany , and, Walter Nash is not a proof .
Reich statistics and UK Import and domestic production statistics were used in Parliament. You have had your answer, more than once, and you ought not ask it in the first place as the authors you misquote from have it in there works. One used the Reich statistical yearbook another the league of nations statistics.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... s-and-oils

1934. 1935 1936.
In 1,000 tons (metric).
Production:
Butter 424 430 445
Net Imports:
Butter 61 71 78
Consumption:
Butter 485 501 523


Dont expect from others what you dont practice yourself

post 231 and 229 i asked and received nada.

Tooze uses and accepts production numbers from Harrison, kindly explain how Toozes military expenditure imputs, correlates to those production numbers, being as they indicate a vastly greater expenditure to obtain the same outputs.


Moving on as you have no clue about economics, your post of 232 was the finale straw.
What post 232 ? Posts are not numbered .
About your question "please : translate your jargon in plain King's English ,and do not ask loaded questions : what is your proof that they indicate a vastly greater expenditure to obtain the same outputs . And who are ''they '' ?

Boby
Member
Posts: 2653
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 17:22
Location: Spain

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Boby » 21 Jan 2019 12:08

Hanny wrote:
21 Jan 2019 11:59
Boby wrote:
21 Jan 2019 11:00
What was no longer imported Hanny?
See post 214, first sentence.
What was no longer imported, Hanny?

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Hanny » 21 Jan 2019 12:25

Boby wrote:
21 Jan 2019 12:08


What was no longer imported, Hanny?

See post 214, first sentence
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Boby
Member
Posts: 2653
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 17:22
Location: Spain

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Boby » 21 Jan 2019 12:33

Hanny wrote:
21 Jan 2019 12:25
Boby wrote:
21 Jan 2019 12:08


What was no longer imported, Hanny?

See post 214, first sentence
What was no longer imported, Hanny?

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Hanny » 21 Jan 2019 12:39

ljadw wrote:
21 Jan 2019 12:03

What post 232 ? Posts are not numbered .
About your question "please : translate your jargon in plain King's English ,and do not ask loaded questions : what is your proof that they indicate a vastly greater expenditure to obtain the same outputs . And who are ''they '' ?
Yes post are numbered.
No, there is no king on the throne, so its Queens English, your only out by 67 years.
Question was very simple, but beyond you.

Apparently moving on, is something else you dont understand.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Hanny » 21 Jan 2019 12:40

Boby wrote:
21 Jan 2019 12:33

What was no longer imported, Hanny?
See post 214, first sentence
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Boby
Member
Posts: 2653
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 17:22
Location: Spain

Re: Different German Oil Strategy

Post by Boby » 21 Jan 2019 13:16

Hanny wrote:
21 Jan 2019 12:40
Boby wrote:
21 Jan 2019 12:33

What was no longer imported, Hanny?
See post 214, first sentence
What was no longer imported, Hanny?

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”