Stalingrad

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ewest89
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ewest89 » 16 Mar 2022 22:10

A soon to be released book about Stalingrad:

https://vaktelforlag.se/produkt/staling ... revisited/

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Yuri
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Yuri » 19 Mar 2022 13:37

ljadw wrote:
04 Mar 2022 15:23
About the myth of the 250000 encircled Germans in Stalingrad, the following is from WW 2 stats.com
Abwicklungsstab ,Group A
Final report from 30.9.44
Strength on 15.10.42 (including replacements until 3.2.43 )
Transported from pocket :15911 wounded/sick and 434 non-wounded
Remaining in the pocket : 158630
Total on 15 .10.42 in the pocket :174975
Not in the pocket : 156269
Not clarified : 7765
These figures do not only debunk the number of encircled,but also the claims that 100000 or more Germans were killed at Stalingrad,as most of the 158000 encircled men surrendered and as most of those who died were non combat casualties .
1. It is unclear why the date 15.10.1942 was chosen to justify the number of troops on 19.11.1942.
2. WW 2 stats.com contains figures compiled by the team of Colonel-General Yodel in the period from May 19 to the end of July 1945 (counted after the war on the instructions of the Allies). Yodel's team numbers are a trend, but not an accuracy.
===============================================

The number of soldiers, officers and generals of European armies who were surrounded after the beginning of November 19, 1942, by the Red Army troops, operations to encircle and destroy enemy troops operating in the city of Stalingrad proper, as well as northwest, north and south of this city, it is impossible to establish with accuracy to a person.

The operation of the Red Army troops in the area on both sides of Stalingrad , which began on November 19 , 1942 , was called as follows:
A) in Russian documents: - the 1st Stalingrad Offensive operation (this name is used more often in documents of those days) or the term "Operation Uranus" is used less often.
B) in German and Romanian documents, starting from November 20, 1942, the term "big Russian offensive" is used for this operation of the Red Army.

The approximate number was estimated by the warring parties immediately after the start of the "Uranus", during the fighting to eliminate the pocket and after the end of the fighting.
We should be interested in what was reported during the fighting.

The first estimate of the number of all Europeans and all types and branches of their armed forces who were in the zone of the "great Russian offensive" that had begun was given by the OKB on November 21, 1942.
According to the OKB, at the time of the start of the "great Russian offensive", there are 400,000 people on the front line and rear areas covered by this offensive.

According to a letter from Lieutenant General Paulus to Field Marshal Manstein on November 26, 1942, the number of troops surrounded and under his command is more than 300,000 people.

A list of armies, corps, divisions and other large units that were surrounded.
On November 19, 1942, they were in the zone of Operation Uranus.

On the site of rum.3.A (there were four army corps and one reserve division in total in this army):
a) three Romanian army corps:
- II.AK, V.AK, IV.AK (divisions – 6): 1.Cav.; 13.ID; 14.ID; 5.ID; 5.Cav.; 7.ID;

b) reserve rum.3.A (divisions – 1): 15.ID;

c) reserve HG.”B” (Pz.K. – 1): XXXXVIII.Pz.K. (22.Pz.D.; rum.1.Pz.D.;KG.Simons-190IR/62.ID);

d) rum.Lw.Flak.Bttr./rum. 5.Flak.Bde.;

e) 104.Flak.Reg./9.Lw.Flak.Div./Lw.Flak.Korp.I;

f) Lw.Flig.&Lw.Flak.&Lw.Bau. Inits/Lw.VIII.Fl.K.;

g) Eis.Reg. 5. (own Eisbahn battalions - 3; attached Eis battalions -2) = total - 5 Eis.Btl.
Construction of two narrow-gauge railway lines in the direction from the existing Morozovskaya - Stalingrad railway in the direction north to the Don River: to supply the Romanian rum.3.A line Oblivskaya - Don River; for the supply of VIII.AK/6.A - line station Chir - Don River;

h) construction battalions (Lw.; Heer; OT) - construction of a "Protective Shaft" on the section from the Chir River to the Don River along the line north of 15-20 km from the Morozovskaya-Stalingrad railway;

i) the supplies battalions of meat, grain and non-ferrous metal – the so-called "Goering agricultural army". They acted within the framework of Goering 's duties - as the commissioner for providing Europe with food. The admission of the "Goering agricultural battalions" to the HG and AOK zones, the order of interaction with the commanders of army units was agreed between OKH and Goering on August 5, 1942.
For example, meat and grain collected by the "agricultural battalion" in the AOK zone were distributed in the following proportion: 2/3 of the volume for AOK; 1/3 of the volume to Europe.

For clarity, we place here a sketch with the actions of KG.Simons from the XXXXVIII.Pz.K. (reserve HG.”B”) on November 19 and 26, 1942.
KG.Simons.Map.42-11-19_22().jpg
KG_Simons(1_6)(1200).jpg
From the 48th Pz.K, the entire KG.Simons, the largest part of the Romanian 1st Pz.D., and from the reserve of rum. 3rd Army, a significant part of rum. 15th ID were in the ring.

In the following, we will consider a similar situation in the sections: German 6.A, German 4.Pz.A. and rum.4.A.

Here, looking ahead, let's say that at the time of the closure of the ring around the Stalingrad group on November 23, 1942, there were troops from the following in this pocket: two Romanian army corps, two German tank corps and four German army corps, which were part of four armies, namely: two Romanian – rum.3.A and rum.4.A and two German 6.A and 4.Pz.A, as well as from the rum reserve.3.A and HG”"B".
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ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 19 Mar 2022 15:08

15 October was taken because it was the day with the last reliable figures.The figures given by Paulus from 19 November were not those who became surrounded, but those who were under his command.Besides,the figures of 15 October include also the replacements that were sent til the encirclment .
And, the Abwicklungsstab A ,gave its final report on 30 September 1944,its figures include only the Germans.The discussion is not about how many soldiers, civilians were surrounded, but about how many German soldiers were surrounded.
It is obvious that only a part were surrounded, otherwise the whole southern front would have collapsed .
I give the figures again
Strength on 15 October and replacements til 3 February ( in fact til 20 November ) : 339009
Not inside the pocket 156269
Transported out of the pocket 16345
In the pocket 158630
Not clarified 7765
There were on 15 October 9207 officers,3608 were not in the pocket,926 were transported,4716 were in the pocket and 47 were not clarified .
While these numbers were varying between 15 October and the encirclement , there is no proof that there was a big difference between both dates .
From those in the pocket (158000 ) 91000 surrendered at the end and some 10000 during the encirclement and from 11000 it is known that they were dead before 3 February,that means that there are 46000 German soldiers of whom it is not known what was their fate during the encirclment .If they died ( which is plausible ) ,one can assume that most died from hunger,cold,sickness ,and that there was thus ,opposed to the legend,not much fighting during the encirclment .More than half of the German losses during the encirclment were men who surrounded,the others died ,mainly from non combat losses .
The strength of 14 Pz was on 15 October 15392 men (officers,officials and soldiers ) of whom 9660 were not in the pocket that day .There is no reason to assume that on 20 November many more were in the pocket .

In October the fighting in Stalingrad was a fighting of attrition between relatively small groups of soldiers . ONE of the reasons was that it was not possible to send the men outside the pocket in the city with the needed supplies and ammunition .

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Yuri » 20 Mar 2022 11:44

Hi, ljadw!

In order to understand each other correctly, it is necessary to understand what each of us is talking about.

Below I have placed two maps for November 20 and December 15, 1942. As you can see, these documents were compiled by the headquarters of the combat combat formation, namely, the headquarters of 9.Lw.Flak.Div.
The units of this division operated throughout the combat zone (both in the interior of the ring and on its outer perimeter). Twice a day (morning and evening), radio messages with reports on the situation were received from regiments, divisions and batteries to the division headquarters.

On the map of November 20, I indicated with bold red arrows the outer perimeter of the ring, which was formed by November 23, 1942. Tactical communication was established on this day:
- between I.TK (bold red arrow on the right/west/bank of the Don River) and IV.MK (bold red arrow on the left/east/bank of the Don River);
- between XXVI.TK (thin red arrow) and IV.MK (bold red arrow) near the station Krivomuzginskaya (or the village of Sovetsky is the same thing).

20 November 1942
42-11-20_Lage_rum3A_6A_4PzA_rum4A_9FlakDiv_Ring.jpg
======
15 Dezember 1942
9Flak_42-12-15_Karte_cut(b_).jpg
=
=
1. Inside the Stalingrad encirclement, any of those parts of the European troops that were located on November 20, 1942 inside the ring marked with bold red arrows could get in.

2. Specify the encirclement ring that you mean when you talk about the encirclement ring around Stalingrad. This will help me understand a lot.

3. Specify the place where on 20.11.1942, in your opinion, the main forces of 14 Pz.Div were located.
That is, indicate the place where there were 9,660 soldiers, unter-offz. and officers of this division out of a total of 15,392 personnel.

4. I will say a few words about the reliability of the Abwicklungsstab data in a separate post.
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Yuri
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Yuri » 21 Mar 2022 10:44

Believing that the following two maps will help those who are not very well oriented:
-a) in the essence and scale of the Stalingrad offensive operations of the Red Army, the first of which (under the name "Uranus") began on November 19, 1942;
-b) about the assumptions of the German command regarding the purpose and scale of the expected Russian offensive in the coming winter;
-c) about the plans of the German and Romanian command to disrupt the plan of the Red Army command.
d) about the scale of the battle in the small bend of the Don River, where the German 6.A command used XI.A.K. and XIV.Pz.K. ( in addition to tank divisions, all motorized anti-tank units of 6. A and from infantry divisions were transferred to it). This battle lasted from November 20 to November 25 inclusive and was extremely bloody for both sides.
1. The situation on 18.11.1942 - on the eve of the start of Operation Uranus.
42-11-18_Stalingrad_Ring (rum3A_rum4A_Pz4_6A)Eisbahn.jpg
2. The position for 20:00 on 25.11.1942 - at the moment on the eve of the demolition of bridges across the Don River. All parts of the European troops that by this time had not managed to cross from the right (western) to the left (eastern) banks of the Don were doomed to destruction or captivity.
9FlakDiv_42-11-25_Chir_Don-Stalingrad().jpg
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Globalization41
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Stalingrad

Post by Globalization41 » 21 Mar 2022 14:06


ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 21 Mar 2022 15:21

Yuri wrote:
21 Mar 2022 10:44
Believing that the following two maps will help those who are not very well oriented:
-a) in the essence and scale of the Stalingrad offensive operations of the Red Army, the first of which (under the name "Uranus") began on November 19, 1942;
-b) about the assumptions of the German command regarding the purpose and scale of the expected Russian offensive in the coming winter;
-c) about the plans of the German and Romanian command to disrupt the plan of the Red Army command.
d) about the scale of the battle in the small bend of the Don River, where the German 6.A command used XI.A.K. and XIV.Pz.K. ( in addition to tank divisions, all motorized anti-tank units of 6. A and from infantry divisions were transferred to it). This battle lasted from November 20 to November 25 inclusive and was extremely bloody for both sides.
1. The situation on 18.11.1942 - on the eve of the start of Operation Uranus.
42-11-18_Stalingrad_Ring (rum3A_rum4A_Pz4_6A)Eisbahn.jpg
2. The position for 20:00 on 25.11.1942 - at the moment on the eve of the demolition of bridges across the Don River. All parts of the European troops that by this time had not managed to cross from the right (western) to the left (eastern) banks of the Don were doomed to destruction or captivity.
9FlakDiv_42-11-25_Chir_Don-Stalingrad().jpg
One point : I know that Russian military writers and historians have the tendency to use,to count A.K.s, but it is questionable to use this for German formations, as in the WM an A.K. was only an administrative HQ,without combat forces : an A.K. could command 1,2,3,4,5, or even more divisions .Thus,it is advisable not to count XIV.Pz.K but the units that were temporarily depending on this A.K.
On 15 October 6.Army had 3 PzD (14,16 and 24 ) with a manpower of 46000 men and on that day 28000 of them were stationed outside what would be on 20 November the Kessel, 18000 were on that day in what would become 5 weeks later the Kessel .
Number of operational tanks and their distribution is not known ,but I think that most tanks were stationed in what later would be the Kessel,where they were used as artillery .
Thus,it is senseless to talk about Pz.K and A.K.
It is even senseless to talk about divisions,as there were no full divisions inside or outside what later would become the Kessel.

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 21 Mar 2022 21:10

Yuri wrote:
20 Mar 2022 11:44
Hi, ljadw!

In order to understand each other correctly, it is necessary to understand what each of us is talking about.

Below I have placed two maps for November 20 and December 15, 1942. As you can see, these documents were compiled by the headquarters of the combat combat formation, namely, the headquarters of 9.Lw.Flak.Div.
The units of this division operated throughout the combat zone (both in the interior of the ring and on its outer perimeter). Twice a day (morning and evening), radio messages with reports on the situation were received from regiments, divisions and batteries to the division headquarters.

On the map of November 20, I indicated with bold red arrows the outer perimeter of the ring, which was formed by November 23, 1942. Tactical communication was established on this day:
- between I.TK (bold red arrow on the right/west/bank of the Don River) and IV.MK (bold red arrow on the left/east/bank of the Don River);
- between XXVI.TK (thin red arrow) and IV.MK (bold red arrow) near the station Krivomuzginskaya (or the village of Sovetsky is the same thing).

20 November 1942
42-11-20_Lage_rum3A_6A_4PzA_rum4A_9FlakDiv_Ring.jpg
======
15 Dezember 1942
9Flak_42-12-15_Karte_cut(b_).jpg
=
=
1. Inside the Stalingrad encirclement, any of those parts of the European troops that were located on November 20, 1942 inside the ring marked with bold red arrows could get in.

2. Specify the encirclement ring that you mean when you talk about the encirclement ring around Stalingrad. This will help me understand a lot.

3. Specify the place where on 20.11.1942, in your opinion, the main forces of 14 Pz.Div were located.
That is, indicate the place where there were 9,660 soldiers, unter-offz. and officers of this division out of a total of 15,392 personnel.

4. I will say a few words about the reliability of the Abwicklungsstab data in a separate post.
2 Yuri,you have indicated yourself with bold red arrows the outer perimeter of the ring .
3 It is very unlikely that there was ONE place outside the Kessel,where the main forces of 14 PzD were concentrated . It is obvious that these forces were spread West of the future Kessel to economize resources .

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 21 Mar 2022 21:37

2 more points : nobody has been able (after almost 80 years ) why Paulus and his HQ were located in what in November would be the Kessel .There was no reason for him to be there : where he was he had no information about the forces north and south of the future Kessel. Only a minority of the forces in the future Kessel were fighting in the city ,most were outside Stalingrad .
After all these years I am still amazed about the ease with which would.be historians, media historians and even serious historians are succeeding to avoid and even to hide the mean reason of the German defeat in Stalingrad, which is the very big problems for the Germans to supply, ALREADY BEFORE 20 November,6.Army with what it claimed to need .And, we know how the army succeeded to convince people that it was all the fault from the LW and especially Goering,the fat Reichsmarschall,while the truth is that the supplies had to be produced in the Heimat and to be transported by train to stations west of Stalingrad .
It was not so that after Uranus X tons of supplies were waiting on aircraft to be transported to airfields in the Kessel,the truth was that the JU were waiting on supplies to transport them to the few airfields in the Kessel .
Last edited by ljadw on 22 Mar 2022 19:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Stalingrad

Post by Globalization41 » 22 Mar 2022 17:57


ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 23 Mar 2022 15:46

Yuri wrote:
20 Mar 2022 11:44




















3. Specify the place where on 20.11.1942, in your opinion, the main forces of 14 Pz.Div were located.
That is, indicate the place where there were 9,660 soldiers, unter-offz. and officers of this division out of a total of 15,392 personnel.

From Germany and WW 2 (German Edition ) Volume 6 ,map between pages 980 and 981:
am 18.11 Masse 14 Pz im Raum Werchne-Buzinovka .and from the same source P 1005,
Stärke und Ausrüstung der im Stalingrader Raumoperierenden deutschen und rumänischen Verbände
48.Panzerkorps 9stand : 19 November )
14 .Pz(ohne die in Stalingrad verbliebene '' Gruppe Seydel )
Verpflegungs-Stärke : 10389
Gefechts-Stärke : 4760
Panzer : 36

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Yuri
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Yuri » 24 Mar 2022 13:46

ljadw wrote:
23 Mar 2022 15:46
Yuri wrote:
20 Mar 2022 11:44
3. Specify the place where on 20.11.1942, in your opinion, the main forces of 14 Pz.Div were located.
That is, indicate the place where there were 9,660 soldiers, unter-offz. and officers of this division out of a total of 15,392 personnel.
From Germany and WW 2 (German Edition ) Volume 6 ,map between pages 980 and 981:
am 18.11 Masse 14 Pz im Raum Werchne-Buzinovka .and from the same source P 1005,
Stärke und Ausrüstung der im Stalingrader Raumoperierenden deutschen und rumänischen Verbände
48.Panzerkorps 9stand : 19 November )
14 .Pz(ohne die in Stalingrad verbliebene '' Gruppe Seydel )
Verpflegungs-Stärke : 10389
Gefechts-Stärke : 4760
Panzer : 36
I made this sketch back in 1999 (in Russian). In 2007, I translated the text on the sketch into English (sorry if a lot is not clear) and posted it on this forum here.
Battle of Sovkhoz "Red Star" (Sovkhoz 79)
(March 4, 2007 13:48)
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=116000&start=30
FrontLine_Krivaja_Chir_Don.jpg
The sketch shows the routes of rifle divisions, tank and cavalry corps of the Red Army, which in Operation Uranus operated north-west of Stalingrad in the interfluve of the Chir and Don.
To be more specific, these are the troops of the 5th Tank, 21st and 65th armies, which were part of the Southwestern and Don fronts.
I learned information about the movement of troops from documents of the level (mainly) platoon, company, battalion, regiment, and division. Only after that I looked through the documents of the Army and Front headquarters.
I looked at the documents related to the 333rd Infantry Division in which my grandfather served in the most detail.
In the sketch, I marked with yellow lines the places indicating the 333rd Rifle Division, as well as the German 14.Pz.D, 24.Pz.D and XIV.Pz.K. (which we are considering here).
As you can see, on November 26, 1942, the 333rd Rifle Division was in Verkhnyaya Buzinovka, that is, in the same locality where the main forces of 14.Pz.D (Ma 14.Pz.D) were located on November 19.
If necessary, you can consider more detailed sketches up to a scale of 1: 100 000 and even 1:50 000.
But you can start studying the course of hostilities in the period from November 19 to 26, 1942 in the interfluve of the Chir and Don on my simple sketch.

I studied the documents (Russian, German and Romanian) in the TSAMO and visited all the places in the area.
I hope that the study of this sketch will encourage you to begin the process of reviewing your (in my opinion, erroneous) view of the course of hostilities in the period from November 19 to November 26, 1942 in the space between the rivers Chir and Don. This may help you to understand that everything (once again) all the forces of the 6th Army (with the exception of training, repair units and some rear units) were encircled and only small groups managed to infiltrate through the ranks of the Red Army troops towards the lower reaches of the Chir River to the stanitsa Nizhne-Chirskaya and the village Verkhne-Chirsky.
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 24 Mar 2022 21:30

I don't see why the figures from WW 2 stats which I have given,should be erroneous . They are official German stats who are accessible at the BA-MA at Freiburg.
Besides, if the whole 6 Army was encircled (338000 men ) how could the Germans have stopped the Soviet advance to the West ?
An other proof is the (wrong ) claim from Paulus on 20 November 1942 that there were only food supplies for 6 days and, following you,for 338000 men .As it took the LW more than 6 days to start with sending food to the pocket, this means that before 30 November the 338000 men of the 6.Army would have surrendered.But this did not happen and as every one knows 6. Army fought during another 65 days .
The following numbers are from Germany and WW2 Tome 6 PP
1003,1004,1005
XI AK ( 3 divisions ) 27500 men
7 AK ( 2 divisions ) 17500
14 PK ( 4 divisions ) 35000
LI AK ( 7 divisions + a part from 14 Pz ) 58000
IV AK (2 divisions ) 20000
48 PK ( 2 divisions ) only of one is the manpower known . (10000 )
There were also 2 separate divisions with 22000 men
Thus we have 22 divisions with a manpower of 190000
The figures from Germany and WW 2 come from Manfred Kehrig who is very authoritative .
But what a lot of historians of the 21. century do not understand is hat it was not so that a division was fighting in the city near the Wolga, but always elements , Kampfgruppen and when these became exhausted they were replaced by other units, from the same division or from an other one .
These 22 divisions with a strength of less than 9000 men,did not fight as a divisions .And it is perfectly possible that from a division which was fighting near the Wolga, the major part was located West of Pitomnik and became not encircled.

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Yuri » 25 Mar 2022 09:56

Dear, ljadw!

I see that you are not taking into account a very important, one might say, the main detail, namely.
On June 22, 1941, not Hitler did attack Stalin, as Democrats of all stripes and shades are trying to inspire us today, and on June 22, 1941, not Germany did attack the USSR, as many honest people believe due to their unawareness, but, in fact, on June 22, 1941, the European coalition, headed by the German Reich, invaded the USSR. And thus, on this longest day of 1941, the Second Russian-European War began.
The fact that at that time there was a Soviet form of government in Russia does not matter much. But it is better to take this fact into account and call the war that began on June 22, 1941 the Soviet-European War.

Let me remind you, if someone suddenly forgot, the First Russian-European War began on June 22, 1812, and the 19th century European Coalition (NATO of the 19th century) was led by the French Reich.

The most distinctly pan-European character of the Soviet-European War is seen both in the battles that took place in the South of Russia, that is, in the Battle of Stalingrad and the Battle for the Caucasus and Crimea.

I will post (not immediately) several diagrams, maps and documents. After that, you and I will be able to find out that in fact, in the Stalingrad area, in addition to 339,000 people who found themselves in the ring on November 23, 1942, there were still quite a no few (very no little) European soldiers and officers who were able to stop the advance of the Red Army. In particular, in the west, create a front along the Krivaya and Chir rivers.

I will prepare and published documents as soon as I am ready.
Let's start with two diagrams showing the state of the Romanian troops in the south of Russia and, in particular, in the Stalingrad area.
06_Rum_Verbande_Lage_42_12_31(1240l).jpg
08_Rum_Verbande_Loss_42-12-31(1).jpg
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 25 Mar 2022 12:10

Yuri:
not many people outside Russia will believe your claim of an European invasion in 1941,but,your claim is irrelevant for the present discussion,which is : what were the German losses in the pocket of Stalingrad,after operation Uranus ?
Yes,there were also Romanians in the pocket , but that is not the discussion .
And about the fact that there were only a minority of French in the Grande Armée of 1812,you wisely forget that the French Allies very quickly abandoned France and supported ...Russia .
And you can not label Napoleon's Grande Armée of 1812 a 19 century Nato .,because the war of 1812 had as aim to force France to respect ,to join the embargo against Britain .
In 1814 and 1815 France was invaded by a European Army of which Russia was only a part to make France unable to start an other war .
In 1856 France attacked Russia again,without much success,but a generation later Russia signed an alliance with what you called the French Reich .
And in 1914,there was a war between the French Reich and Russia against Germany.
Russia, France, Germany were allies and opponents and fought against each other .
That Goebbels called the war from June 1941 a European war against Russia is not a serious argument .

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