Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
Hideyosho
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Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by Hideyosho » 03 Oct 2018 04:02

Good evening all, how are you doing?

I recently got interested on German (and Italian, to a lesser extent) use of captured rifles (Mosins, SVTs, and perhaps AVSs) by snipers. I'm aware that German snipers were provided (how often is unbeknownst to me, but I assume not frequently) with silencers and special ammunition which worked effectively with them (AFAIK, Italian snipers didn't made use of silencers, but perhaps some from the RSI them did after having been supplied with them by the Germans in 1944, along with Kar 98k rifles).

It sounded logical to me then that snipers from Germany and Italy, having them participated at the Eastern Front, and given the apparently high number of rifles fitted with silencers (AFAIK, most of them were Mosins, but it seems some SVTs also sported them) that were found from dead partisans, enemy snipers, and scouts, used them.

Whether the Germans toyed up with the development of silencers for captured rifles, I don't know, but I recall one been developed for captured Nagant revolvers.

Basically, that would be it, as my knowledge about captured fireams and their use at that front is very limited.

Would like to know your opinions, thoughts, and why not, theories about this.

Cheers.

G, Y?
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by G, Y? » 27 Dec 2021 05:46

The Germans copied the Soviet design but changed it from a socket bayonet type mount to a clamp mount of the type used on their rifle grenade launchers. David Truby has a cutaway drawing on page 71 of his book.

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Hans1906
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by Hans1906 » 27 Dec 2021 16:58

Hideyosho,

no idea at at all, but let me share three links to the german FdW:

Schalldämpfer K98 https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/inde ... mpfer-k98/

MP mit Schalldämpfer https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/inde ... lldämpfer/

Schalldämpfer https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/inde ... lldämpfer/


Hans
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G, Y?
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by G, Y? » 27 Dec 2021 17:57

The Soviet suppressor needed special subsonic ammuniition and partisans were instructed that if the ammo wasn't available, they could pull the bullet and remove half of the powder for a reduced charge. Since the German design I mentioned was based on the Soviet one, the Germans would also have to make subsonic ammunition. Is there someone I can email a drawing of it too for translation here? It's Frankfurt Font and I think I have translated most of it, but not being a German speaker am unsure.

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Poot
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by Poot » 27 Dec 2021 20:02

G.Y? wrote:
27 Dec 2021 17:57
The Soviet suppressor needed special subsonic ammuniition and partisans were instructed that if the ammo wasn't available, they could pull the bullet and remove half of the powder for a reduced charge.
Reducing by half would dramatically alter velocity, bullet flight characteristics, effective range and point of impact at known ranges.
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

G, Y?
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by G, Y? » 27 Dec 2021 21:22

You're 100% correct Poot. That's why the Soviets and Germans rollmarked sight adjustments for the reduced charge on the body of the suppressor.

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Poot
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by Poot » 27 Dec 2021 21:56

VERY interesting! That would have been helpful when it came to field use. Thanks for providing that information!
Pat
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

Hideyosho
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by Hideyosho » 27 Feb 2022 17:16

G, Y? wrote:
27 Dec 2021 05:46
The Germans copied the Soviet design but changed it from a socket bayonet type mount to a clamp mount of the type used on their rifle grenade launchers. David Truby has a cutaway drawing on page 71 of his book.
Hello G, Y?, thanks for replying, and sorry for the very late reply. I have not made use of these Forums in quite a while.

Yes, I recall the Germans developed their own silencers, but I was not aware they were little-altered copies of the Soviet ones. I will definitely need to have a look, again, at the German silencers, since I have not researched this topic in a few years.

Have a nice day.

Hideyosho
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by Hideyosho » 27 Feb 2022 17:18

Hans1906 wrote:
27 Dec 2021 16:58
Hideyosho,

no idea at at all, but let me share three links to the german FdW:

Schalldämpfer K98 https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/inde ... mpfer-k98/

MP mit Schalldämpfer https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/inde ... lldämpfer/

Schalldämpfer https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/inde ... lldämpfer/


Hans
Hello Hans1906, thanks for replying, and sorry for the very late reply. I haven't made any use of these Forums in quite a time.

Thank you for the links. I will have a look at them and comment about them should I have any doubt related to them.

Have a nice day.

Hideyosho
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by Hideyosho » 27 Feb 2022 17:23

G, Y? wrote:
27 Dec 2021 17:57
The Soviet suppressor needed special subsonic ammuniition and partisans were instructed that if the ammo wasn't available, they could pull the bullet and remove half of the powder for a reduced charge. Since the German design I mentioned was based on the Soviet one, the Germans would also have to make subsonic ammunition. Is there someone I can email a drawing of it too for translation here? It's Frankfurt Font and I think I have translated most of it, but not being a German speaker am unsure.
Hello again G, Y?

Interesting information you mention. I wonder about the characteristics of German-manufactured subsonic ammunition. Will have to research a little about that.

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JTV
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by JTV » 01 Mar 2022 06:53

Poot wrote:
27 Dec 2021 20:02
Reducing by half would dramatically alter velocity, bullet flight characteristics, effective range and point of impact at known ranges.
It did - and apparently in major way. What I could find the muzzle velocity was supposedly only about 262 meters / second. Hence it was obviously intended for relatively quiet short-range work, not really for sniper use. One can get pretty good idea how short-range the combination actually was by considering that according Finnish tests shooting Soviet m/91-30 rifle equipped with S-40 suppressor and Soviet special ammo to range of 100 meters was to be done with 700 meter rear sight setting. Also Finnish sources suggest that 300 meters was the absolute maximum range for the particular Soviet ammo.

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Poot
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by Poot » 01 Mar 2022 18:30

That makes complete sense, thanks for adding that information! I can't imagine using a 700 meter rear sight setting for someone at 100 meters...
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

G, Y?
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by G, Y? » 13 Mar 2022 21:33

Hideyosho wrote:
27 Feb 2022 17:23
G, Y? wrote:
27 Dec 2021 17:57
The Soviet suppressor needed special subsonic ammuniition and partisans were instructed that if the ammo wasn't available, they could pull the bullet and remove half of the powder for a reduced charge. Since the German design I mentioned was based on the Soviet one, the Germans would also have to make subsonic ammunition. Is there someone I can email a drawing of it too for translation here? It's Frankfurt Font and I think I have translated most of it, but not being a German speaker am unsure.
Hello again G, Y?

Interesting information you mention. I wonder about the characteristics of German-manufactured subsonic ammunition. Will have to research a little about that.
See p. 63 of David Truby's book for one of the few comments I've found on German subsonic ammunitions. It's mentioned in the endnote of my book on sniping (which should have been out in Feb. but is still at the printers)

G, Y?
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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by G, Y? » 13 Mar 2022 21:38

JTV wrote:
01 Mar 2022 06:53
Poot wrote:
27 Dec 2021 20:02
Reducing by half would dramatically alter velocity, bullet flight characteristics, effective range and point of impact at known ranges.
It did - and apparently in major way. What I could find the muzzle velocity was supposedly only about 262 meters / second. Hence it was obviously intended for relatively quiet short-range work, not really for sniper use. One can get pretty good idea how short-range the combination actually was by considering that according Finnish tests shooting Soviet m/91-30 rifle equipped with S-40 suppressor and Soviet special ammo to range of 100 meters was to be done with 700 meter rear sight setting. Also Finnish sources suggest that 300 meters was the absolute maximum range for the particular Soviet ammo.
Soviet markings on the suppressor's body instructed the user to set the iron sights for "7" for 100 meters, "9.5" for 200 meters and "12" for 300 meters, the maximum it was expected to be used and the Soviets did not anticipate its use beyond that distance. The suppressors were predominantly distributed to scouts, partisans, KGB and very few snipers.

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Re: Use of Captured Soviet Rifles (with Silencers) by Snipers

Post by ROLAND1369 » 15 Mar 2022 16:10

First of all it is not necessary to use subsonic ammunition in a suppressed weapon. The use of subsonic ammo only eliminates the supersonic crack as the bullet passes the target. Most of the silenced rifles we used in Viet Nam used standard or match grade ammo. The advantage of silenced rifles for sniping is that by elimination of the firing noise caused by the discharge of the projectile you eliminate the ability of the target to identify the direction, and thus location, of the sniper. Thus you retain the full capability of the weapon. The target generally knows it is being fired on when people start falling. For those rare occasions when silence is necessary silenced pistols or SMG or specialized weapons such as Welrod pistols would be used. Anyone who has used a suppressed weapon will tell you that while the noise level is significantly lowered they ar not as silent as the movies would have you believe.

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