Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 04 Feb 2014 14:09

Hi!

Even a cursory examination of archival documents of the German 1st Panzer Army suggests that this fortification is the observation point sector number 1 position «Orel-Samara». Built by German sappers (involving prisoners of war and civilians) in the summer of 1943. Generally, a point Kramatorskaya docking of two German fortified positions – «Orel-Samara» and «Turtle». This information I have learned from the past purchased copies of archival documents Sapper 1st Panzer Army.

But there is a problem. For the content of the future museum, an accurate and correct translation of German documents. I appeal to you - perhaps someone on a charitable basis, will assist in the work of translating these documents from German into Russian? I hope very much to help us indifferent and sympathizers colleagues. Thank you.

Best regards.
Konstantyn

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der bunkermann
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by der bunkermann » 04 Feb 2014 17:28

Unfortunatly i dont speak russion.. maybe someone local who is a teacher, or someone of the german embassey? Or is that not so easy in ukraine..

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 09 Feb 2014 11:24

der bunkermann wrote:Unfortunatly i dont speak russion.. maybe someone local who is a teacher, or someone of the german embassey? Or is that not so easy in ukraine..
Hi!

Thank you. The problem is that now all learning English. We seek a former compatriots, who have been living in Germany.

Best regards.
Konstantyn

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 09 Feb 2014 11:52

Bunker Kramatorsk. Still «Orel-Ssamara-Stellung» ...

Further study of archival documents of the German 1st Panzer Army gives you the opportunity to answer some of the questions posed by the author in the previous report. Entered into circulation, previously unknown documents, allow for a more detailed assessment of the level of military planning of the German command, scale engineering training bridgehead.

Image

On this map fragment we can see the general location of the fortified defensive lines - "Orel-Samara", "Turtle-North", "Bereka- Ssuchoj Torez," "Orehovatka", "Mole-North", "Beachhead Sslawjansk". It should be noted that the command of Army Group "South" in general, correctly identified the best tank hazardous areas. And, as subsequent events showed in September 1943, to correctly assess the direction of the main thrusts of the Red Army. It is difficult now to imagine the amount of losses of the Red Army, if the German command had time to fully equip and staff weapons these numerous fortified positions... The question is purely rhetorical, the story does not know the subjunctive mood. A little later I'll introduce you to what is really happening at these frontiers September 1-8, 1943. According to the version of the opposing side. And yet ...

While the offer to return to the area Kramatorskaya. Through which, on the left bank of the river Kozenyi Butt held line of defense "Turtle-North."

Image

Rather, the plot number 16 this fortified position, length of 13.3 km. On this map fragment marked the northernmost point of "Turtles North" (and, accordingly, section number 16) - area south Sslawjansk. Please pay attention to the fact that this line is removed from the place on the western outskirts of Kramatorskaya where he was, preserved today, the German fortifications. This suggests that this building is not related to the position of "Turtle North".
Finally establish this allows us to the next map section. Showing a portion of number one line of defense "Orel-Samara".

Image

Here you need to pay attention to several objects that are marked on the map by black triangles. One of them (highlighted by me) is located approximately at the place where the preserved fortification. So, on the German charts, designated observation points (B-Stelle, Beobachtungsstelle). This suggests that the structure, question, observation point is the German fortified line of defense "Orel-Samara". Built - the summer of 1943.

Sources:

1. NARA/T313/R55/fr.7290011-7291106


Konstantin Abramenko
02/05/2014

herring
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by herring » 09 Feb 2014 16:51

Hello,

Impressive research, it's very interesting.
I also agree, as other B-Stellen are installed along the line , it should be Orel-Samara Stellung.
Have you tried to locate other bunkers, as now you see on the map, where they should be?

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 09 Feb 2014 18:15

herring wrote:Hello,

Impressive research, it's very interesting.
I also agree, as other B-Stellen are installed along the line , it should be Orel-Samara Stellung.
Have you tried to locate other bunkers, as now you see on the map, where they should be?
Thank you for your positive review, there is still a lot of work. The main problem with the right and competent translation of existing documents . I am very grateful to everyone who reads and follows our work - it gives an incentive to continue to do something. Thanks to all of you have some progress - a few months ago, I never dreamed that we would have the opportunity to familiarize themselves with these documents. A few months ago I knew absolutely nothing about the existence of fortified positions "Orel- Samara ", even the names have not heard . Now we begin to receive information - and this is your merit .

Only to end winter, only dry out the road - we will begin to search for other structures of this line of defense. Reports this search and travel , their results , I certainly will publish on this wonderful forum. Thank you all .

Best regards
Konstantyn

herring
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by herring » 09 Feb 2014 20:29

Fortifications that you dealing with are quite interesting for developement of German fortifications. In your region it was one of first moments, when Germans had to built fortification lines. It looks, like stellungs around you were built as a contionuation of fortifications built around Kursk pocket (e.g. Hagen Stellung). It might be something in between typical field fortifications (earth + wood), and more reinforced fortifications (some concrete objects). I guess you may find some unusual concrete structures, which later became standard or not. Also it's proved, that near you , in Izyum, there were used Panzernests. Maybe they were also in Kramatorsk?
In these regions German fortifications are absolutelly unknown. Next line to the west, that is a bit described, is a Panther stellung - it goes via Zaporozhye, also with some unusual objects.
"Orel-Ssamara Stellung" sounds a bit crazy - it can not go from Orel to Samara...

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 09 Feb 2014 21:46

herring wrote:Fortifications that you dealing with are quite interesting for developement of German fortifications. In your region it was one of first moments, when Germans had to built fortification lines. It looks, like stellungs around you were built as a contionuation of fortifications built around Kursk pocket (e.g. Hagen Stellung). It might be something in between typical field fortifications (earth + wood), and more reinforced fortifications (some concrete objects). I guess you may find some unusual concrete structures, which later became standard or not. Also it's proved, that near you , in Izyum, there were used Panzernests. Maybe they were also in Kramatorsk?
In these regions German fortifications are absolutelly unknown. Next line to the west, that is a bit described, is a Panther stellung - it goes via Zaporozhye, also with some unusual objects.
"Orel-Ssamara Stellung" sounds a bit crazy - it can not go from Orel to Samara...
Thank you. I agree with you and support this view. Indeed, according to preliminary data Panzernests aligned in the defensive zone of the 46th Infantry Division near the town of Izyum, on the banks of the Donets River. I once wrote about this in one of the topics and published photographs of these places. I plan to purchase documents of the 46th Infantry Division in the summer of 1943 and look into this issue in more detail.

Name "Orel" and "Samara" have no relation to the names of cities in Russia - the city of Samara on the Volga River and the city of Oryol, the capital of the Oryol region. Orel and Samara - names of small rivers in Ukraine, in the region where I live. Which is supported at its flanks, this fortified position.

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 09 Feb 2014 22:05

herring wrote:Also it's proved, that near you , in Izyum, there were used Panzernests. Maybe they were also in Kramatorsk?
Very interesting question. Previously, I have not heard anything about it. But it does not mean anything - I just now started to clarify for themselves many questions. I will study this issue very carefully. And there are prerequisites. The fact that on some maps of different parts of a fortified position "Orel-Samara" a transcript notations. This decoding of - different icons and what they mean (MG position, PAK position, etc.) So, there is shown a very interesting icon, next to which is written in German - "MG Pz. nester"

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 09 Feb 2014 22:22

Konstantin wrote: So, there is shown a very interesting icon, next to which is written in German - "MG Pz. nester"
Image

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 23 Jun 2014 22:47

Exactly one year ago, June 22, 2013, began this epic. Which afterwards, not without pathos, was coined promising title - create a monument to the Second World War fortifications in Kramatorsk. And then, a year ago, we just blinked and climbed to shovel shit. By shit shit, but it was a wonderful time - had a common goal, a strong desire and awesome naivete. Actually, this desire of a handful of visionaries and destructional naive amateurs and moving this project. Of course, then tightened not dreamers, people are very pragmatic and very far from such nonsense as historical memory ... But whatever it was, whatever the motives or who have moved, I still absolutely grateful to everyone who had a hand and has contributed.

It was before the war ... I can not get used to this damned "before the war." As to the fact that all of us, the participants in this project, this war, damn it might spread her on opposite sides. And perhaps scattered around the world, with such care and diligence that horseradish gather. I hope that when we all meet again, after the war, who will survive ... And look into each other's eyes. I do not think it will be easy, I think it would be unbearable. But it will have to do because every war ever ends. And as you will have to live on and bring to an end when it started. So it was up to us and will be ever.

herring
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by herring » 23 Jun 2014 23:27

Dear Konstantin,

It's good to hear from you again. I was wondering some time ago, how is doing your historical monument being "in the middle of history" once again....
It's easy to understand, that in present moment, for a few years "historical memory" will be far away behind life problems and personal safety. I hope that things will calm down, and you will be able to continue the work. I also hope, that you and your family will get out safely from all this mess.

Best regards

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 28 Jun 2014 20:29

herring wrote:Dear Konstantin,

It's good to hear from you again. I was wondering some time ago, how is doing your historical monument being "in the middle of history" once again....
It's easy to understand, that in present moment, for a few years "historical memory" will be far away behind life problems and personal safety. I hope that things will calm down, and you will be able to continue the work. I also hope, that you and your family will get out safely from all this mess.

Best regards
Dear herring,

thank you for your participation and concern. Unfortunately, we were all unwitting participants in these historic events. Unfortunately, my assumption that the bunker will still participate in hostilities confirmed. But now I am a little worried about the fate of the building. In a time when people are dying, anxiety and excitement about such trifles - unnecessarily undignified and wrong. Now the most important thing for us - to survive, to stay alive, do not lose their loved ones. It is basic. Everything else - after the war ...

Best regards
Konstantin

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 20 Jul 2014 18:09

Our tank had survived the occupation of the city. All conversations and information that terrorists use it, there dug trenches, etc. - Were only rumors.
This photo made ​​our colleague Viktor Ivanov 07.07.2014. Two days after the liberation of the city

Image

Konstantin
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Re: Create fortification monument of World War II, Ukraine

Post by Konstantin » 09 Aug 2020 19:24

Good evening! The history of this bunker has been clarified. You can find out about this and other structures on the territory of Ukraine here

https://www.facebook.com/groups/bunkertravel/

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