Wake Quest

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 20 Jan 2022 16:24

Eugen Pinak wrote:
20 Jan 2022 11:04
Brady wrote:
17 Jan 2022 17:39
There are a few things that are off below, but the one I am most curious about at present are the H6K2-L's and the "transports" listed under the 24 NAF transport unit.
I have no idea about Niehorster's sources. But they doesn't confirmed with the official data on IJN aircraft assignments.
I’ve had the same problem, I’ve ordered a book that’s on the way hopefully will answer some of these transport aircraft questions

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 21 Jan 2022 09:26

Brady wrote:
07 Jan 2022 23:21
Also, any interesting tidbits about Japanese land units? My (contradictory) sources list the entire 2nd Maizuru for Wake or just two infantry companies. As many as 400 more sailors/SNLF came from drafts from the 5th and 6th Base Forces and the original 5th Maizuru Company (of 5th Base Force) from the first assault was retained, plus about 350 men from a company sized unit of the 7th Base Force(??).

What were there TOE's like ?
The details of 2nd battle on December 23th;
TOE
Combined SLF: / (ADD) Commanding Officer: CDR Tanaka Mitsuo 田中光夫 (49) (Regular Post was Yubari XO)
- HQ: 〜 40 men
- 1st Company / LT Uchida Kin’ichi 内田謹一 (63) (KIA) : 346 men (Maizuru SLF Special Company)
- 2nd Company / ENS (S.D.) Takano Yoyoji 高橋豊治: 210 men (from 6th Base Force)
- 3rd Company / LTJG (S.D.) Itaya Yakichi 板谷弥吉: 240 men (from 2nd Mizuru SLF)
- others: 70 men
Reserve Companies waiting on board
- 4th Land Force Company organized by Yubari crew
- 5th Land Force Company organized by 29th Destroyer Division crew
- 6th Land Force Company organized by 30th Destroyer Division crew
- 7th Land Force Company organized by PB-32 and PB-33 crew
The battle development
(1) Attack Order was ordered at 0000
(2) 1st Company boarded on PB-32 and PB-33 randing / LT Uchida was Kin’ichi KIA
(3) Combined SLF HQ landing
(4) 2nd Company Commander's direct control unit suppressed A battery / ENS (S.D.) Takano Yoyoji was KIA
(5) 3rd Company landing / LTJG (S.D.) Itaya Yakichi was injured
(6) Completed suppression of all islands at 1015

fontessa

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 21 Jan 2022 16:20

fontessa wrote:
21 Jan 2022 09:26
Brady wrote:
07 Jan 2022 23:21
Also, any interesting tidbits about Japanese land units? My (contradictory) sources list the entire 2nd Maizuru for Wake or just two infantry companies. As many as 400 more sailors/SNLF came from drafts from the 5th and 6th Base Forces and the original 5th Maizuru Company (of 5th Base Force) from the first assault was retained, plus about 350 men from a company sized unit of the 7th Base Force(??).

What were there TOE's like ?
The details of 2nd battle on December 23th;
TOE
Combined SLF: / (ADD) Commanding Officer: CDR Tanaka Mitsuo 田中光夫 (49) (Regular Post was Yubari XO)
- HQ: 〜 40 men
- 1st Company / LT Uchida Kin’ichi 内田謹一 (63) (KIA) : 346 men (Maizuru SLF Special Company)
- 2nd Company / ENS (S.D.) Takano Yoyoji 高橋豊治: 210 men (from 6th Base Force)
- 3rd Company / LTJG (S.D.) Itaya Yakichi 板谷弥吉: 240 men (from 2nd Mizuru SLF)
- others: 70 men
Reserve Companies waiting on board
- 4th Land Force Company organized by Yubari crew
- 5th Land Force Company organized by 29th Destroyer Division crew
- 6th Land Force Company organized by 30th Destroyer Division crew
- 7th Land Force Company organized by PB-32 and PB-33 crew
The battle development
(1) Attack Order was ordered at 0000
(2) 1st Company boarded on PB-32 and PB-33 randing / LT Uchida was Kin’ichi KIA
(3) Combined SLF HQ landing
(4) 2nd Company Commander's direct control unit suppressed A battery / ENS (S.D.) Takano Yoyoji was KIA
(5) 3rd Company landing / LTJG (S.D.) Itaya Yakichi was injured
(6) Completed suppression of all islands at 1015

fontessa
Thanks, as always for the extra detail/help:

A couple questions though,

It was the intent from the start for PB-32 and PB-33 to beach themselves correct on the second landing attempt?

How many men were in the Land Force Company's Organized by the Ship's crews?

In the End they were not deployed ashore afik ?

Presumably they just had Rifles, no Machine Guns or Light Mortars (Type 89 grenade discharger) ?

Presumably the 7th Land Force Company organized by PB-32 and PB-33's crew did wind up going ashore and fighting?

I can't help but wonder to what extant the average Japanese sailor was trained in Land Combat ?

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 22 Jan 2022 07:47

Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
21 Jan 2022 16:20
It was the intent from the start for PB-32 and PB-33 to beach themselves correct on the second landing attempt?
PB-32 and PB-33 were used in the 2nd attack. After PB-33 failed the launch of Daihatsu, PB-32 and PB-33 sat down on the beach and landed 1st Company.
Brady wrote:
21 Jan 2022 16:20
How many men were in the Land Force Company's Organized by the Ship's crews?
It was said;
One squad (less than 10 people) for each destroyer, 1-2 platoons (4-8 platoons = 40-80 people) for cruisers, and one company (4 platoons = about 160 people) for battleships are standard. It was a typical organization.
Brady wrote:
21 Jan 2022 16:20
In the End they were not deployed ashore afik ?
What is afik?
Brady wrote:
21 Jan 2022 16:20
Presumably they just had Rifles, no Machine Guns or Light Mortars (Type 89 grenade discharger) ?
As for Land Force Company's Organized by the Ship's crews, I think so.
Brady wrote:
21 Jan 2022 16:20
Presumably the 7th Land Force Company organized by PB-32 and PB-33's crew did wind up going ashore and fighting?
I don’t think so.
Brady wrote:
21 Jan 2022 16:20
I can't help but wonder to what extant the average Japanese sailor was trained in Land Combat ?
It seems that the 海兵団 Naval Barracks (Sailor training unit) also conducted ground warfare training.

fontessa

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 22 Jan 2022 15:49

fontessa wrote:
22 Jan 2022 07:47

PB-32 and PB-33 were used in the 2nd attack. After PB-33 failed the launch of Daihatsu, PB-32 and PB-33 sat down on the beach and landed 1st Company.
Do we know why they failed to Launch the Daihatsu?
fontessa wrote:
22 Jan 2022 07:47
It was said;
One squad (less than 10 people) for each destroyer, 1-2 platoons (4-8 platoons = 40-80 people) for cruisers, and one company (4 platoons = about 160 people) for battleships are standard. It was a typical organization.
O, wow, that's Interesting
fontessa wrote:
22 Jan 2022 07:47
What is afik?
As Far as I know


fontessa wrote:
22 Jan 2022 07:47
I don’t think so.
I wounder what became of them after they Beached.

.......................................

Did all IJN ships do this, for instance did the Support ships or the Armed Merchant Cruisers do this as well?

Form Shore parties, or have a doctrine for doing so?

Thanks Again.

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 22 Jan 2022 20:22

Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
22 Jan 2022 15:49
fontessa wrote:
22 Jan 2022 07:47
PB-32 and PB-33 were used in the 2nd attack. After PB-33 failed the launch of Daihatsu, PB-32 and PB-33 sat down on the beach and landed 1st Company.
Do we know why they failed to Launch the Daihatsu?
It seems that the waves were so rough that both PB-32 and PB-33 couldn't launch Daihatsu.

ウエーク島 PB32 PB33 A.jpg

Brady wrote:
22 Jan 2022 15:49
fontessa wrote:
22 Jan 2022 07:47
Brady wrote:
21 Jan 2022 16:20
In the End they were not deployed ashore afik ?
What is afik?

As Far as I know
Yes, I also think so.
Brady wrote:
22 Jan 2022 15:49
fontessa wrote:
22 Jan 2022 07:47
I don’t think so.
I wounder what became of them after they Beached.
The rest returned to Roy on the 29th, except for the personnel absorbed by the newly established 65th Guard Unit for Wake guard. I think they were included in this too.

.......................................
Brady wrote:
22 Jan 2022 15:49
Did all IJN ships do this, for instance did the Support ships or the Armed Merchant Cruisers do this as well?

Form Shore parties, or have a doctrine for doing so?
???
I am not an English native speaker. I need more plain English.

fontessa
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Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 22 Jan 2022 21:14

Did all Imperial Japanese Navy ships, including auxiliaries, like seaplane tenders, submarine tenders, armed merchant cruisers, form landing parties or be able to do so if the need arose, The same way that the battleships were the cruisers or the destroyers did?

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by daveshoup2MD » 22 Jan 2022 23:44

Brady wrote:
22 Jan 2022 21:14
Did all Imperial Japanese Navy ships, including auxiliaries, like seaplane tenders, submarine tenders, armed merchant cruisers, form landing parties or be able to do so if the need arose, The same way that the battleships were the cruisers or the destroyers did?
Pretty much doctrine for all navies at the time - even during the Cold War and today, if necessary. Here's a history of the USN shore party doctrine:

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/l ... -navy.html

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 23 Jan 2022 03:57

Brady wrote:
22 Jan 2022 21:14
Did all Imperial Japanese Navy ships, including auxiliaries, like seaplane tenders, submarine tenders, armed merchant cruisers, form landing parties or be able to do so if the need arose, The same way that the battleships were the cruisers or the destroyers did?
Sorry, I don't know the details.
And sorry, I have shown the wrong photo in #11 of "Re: Wake Quest". I would like to withdraw it.

取下 ウエーク島.jpg

fontessa
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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 23 Jan 2022 10:59

Eugen Pinak wrote:
20 Jan 2022 11:04
I have no idea about Niehorster's sources. But they doesn't confirmed with the official data on IJN aircraft assignments.
According to 第24航空戦隊 戦闘詳報 / 戦時日誌 24th Naval Air Squadron Action Report / Wartime Diary, the composition of it was as follows.
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... L_TYPE=pdf
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... L_TYPE=pdf
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... L_TYPE=pdf

Airplanes actual on January 1
Chitose Naval Air Group
- Betty x 6 + Nell x 9
- Jake x 27 + Claude x 11
1st Air Group
- Nell x 33
Reorganized on 1 April 1942
Before the reorganization on paper
Chitose Naval Air Group
- Betty: 36 / 12
- Jake: 36 / 12
1st Air Group
- Betty: 36 / 12
- Kamoi
- Goshu Maru
After the reorganization on paper
Chitose Naval Air Group
- Betty: 27 / 9
- Jake: 27 / 9
1st Air Group
- Betty: 27 / 9
- Jake: 27 / 9
14th Air Group (ADD)
- Navis: 12 / 4
Airplanes actual on April 1
Chitose Naval Air Group
- Betty x 9 + Nell x 16 (Roi) / Betty x o + Nell x 8 (Wake)
- Jake x 1 + Claude x 13 (Roi) / Jake x 8+ Claude x 6 (Wake)
1st Air Group
- Betty x 0 + Nell x 18 (Taroa) and Betty x 0 + Nell x 11 (Rabaul)
- Jake x 0 + Claude x 13 (Taroa) and Jake x 0 + Claude x 0 (Rabaul)
14th Air Group
- Navis x 4 / 4 (Imiere) and
4 were the only spare of 24th Naval Air Squadron.
Airplanes on paper on August 1
Chitose Naval Air Group (Roi)
- Betty + Nell: 27
- Jake + Claude: 27
1st Air Group
- Betty + Nell: 27 (Taroa)
- Jake + Claude18 (Taroa) + 9 (???)
14th Air Group (???)
- Navis x 12

fontessa

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 23 Jan 2022 16:10

fontessa wrote:
23 Jan 2022 10:59
Eugen Pinak wrote:
20 Jan 2022 11:04
I have no idea about Niehorster's sources. But they doesn't confirmed with the official data on IJN aircraft assignments.
According to 第24航空戦隊 戦闘詳報 / 戦時日誌 24th Naval Air Squadron Action Report / Wartime Diary, the composition of it was as follows.
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... L_TYPE=pdf
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... L_TYPE=pdf
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... L_TYPE=pdf

Airplanes actual on January 1
Chitose Naval Air Group
- Betty x 6 + Nell x 9
- Jake x 27 + Claude x 11
1st Air Group
- Nell x 33



fontessa
So all these planes were in the marshal Islands In December 41?

Izawa and Hata, mention that the Chitose NAG Fighter unit had:

Image

Image
Last edited by Brady on 23 Jan 2022 16:29, edited 1 time in total.

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Eugen Pinak » 23 Jan 2022 16:18

fontessa wrote:
23 Jan 2022 10:59
Eugen Pinak wrote:
20 Jan 2022 11:04
I have no idea about Niehorster's sources. But they doesn't confirmed with the official data on IJN aircraft assignments.
According to 第24航空戦隊 戦闘詳報 / 戦時日誌 24th Naval Air Squadron Action Report / Wartime Diary, the composition of it was as follows.
Fontessa - once again thank you for those details. Especially about actual unit strength, which is very hard to find.

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 23 Jan 2022 16:25

OMG, is this the Air Search Plan for the marshal islands?

Image

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 23 Jan 2022 16:46

Brady wrote:
23 Jan 2022 16:10
fontessa wrote:
23 Jan 2022 10:59
Airplanes actual on January 1
Chitose Naval Air Group
- Betty x 6 + Nell x 9
- Jake x 27 + Claude x 11
1st Air Group
- Nell x 33


fontessa
So all these planes were in the marshal Islands In December 41?
Sorry, I got the wrong year.
Airplanes actual on January 1 1943
703rd Naval Air Group (Old Chitose Naval Air Group)
- Betty x 6 + Nell x 9 (Chitose)
201st Naval Air Group (Old Chitose Naval Air Group)
- Jake x 27 + Claude x 11 (Roi and Wake)
752nd Naval Air Group (Old 1st Air Group)
- Nell x 33 (Kisarazu)

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 23 Jan 2022 21:21

fontessa wrote:
23 Jan 2022 16:46
Brady wrote:
23 Jan 2022 16:10
fontessa wrote:
23 Jan 2022 10:59
Airplanes actual on January 1
Chitose Naval Air Group
- Betty x 6 + Nell x 9
- Jake x 27 + Claude x 11
1st Air Group
- Nell x 33


fontessa
So all these planes were in the marshal Islands In December 41?
Sorry, I got the wrong year.
Airplanes actual on January 1 1943
703rd Naval Air Group (Old Chitose Naval Air Group)
- Betty x 6 + Nell x 9 (Chitose)
201st Naval Air Group (Old Chitose Naval Air Group)
- Jake x 27 + Claude x 11 (Roi and Wake)
752nd Naval Air Group (Old 1st Air Group)
- Nell x 33 (Kisarazu)
Is there then a Reference for the Planes in December of 41, or is that what we have seen above (before in this thread)?

Thanks Again btw for all of this help :)

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