Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

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mikegriffith1
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by mikegriffith1 » 20 Nov 2021 15:53

It is embarrassing that the moderators have allowed this thread to be posted in the same sub-forum where the Holocaust is discussed. Until relatively recently, Palestinian books and newspapers spoke approvingly of Hitler and carried brazenly anti-Semitic cartoons. This only stopped when this revolting propaganda began to draw international attention.

If the Palestinians controlled the West Bank, it would be the same miserable, terrorist-coddling mess that we see in Gaza. More Palestinians have been killed by radical Palestinians than have ever been killed by real or imagined Israeli war crimes.

The Palestinians would have a larger homeland today if they had not rejected the UN's 1947 partition plan, a plan that the Jews accepted. But, the Palestinians were so certain that their Arab brothers could drive the Jews into the sea, that they rejected the plan and welcomed the arrival of the invading Arab armies. Yet, lo and behold, the Jews, though vastly outnumbered, defeated the Arab armies and justifiably drove most Palestinians from their homes.

Sorry, when you reject a fair partition plan and invite Arab armies to come wipe out the Jews, you have no right to complain when those same Jews are in no mood to forget your treachery and allow you to stay.

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 20 Nov 2021 20:24

mikegriffith1 wrote:
20 Nov 2021 15:53
It is embarrassing that the moderators have allowed this thread to be posted in the same sub-forum where the Holocaust is discussed.
Alas Israeli war crimes took place and personally I don't see why they must not be discussed there. However, of course, the moderators have right to lock the thread but it seems to me they will not do it. Also there is an interesting theoretical question about connection between the Holocaust, desire to establish Jewish state in Palestine and subsequent war crimes during conquest of the territory controlled now by the state of Israel. I dare to suggest that the Holocaust survivors, their relatives, victims of anti-Semitism in Europe didn't always follow the rules of the war for ideological reasons. Though, I could be wrong. Anyway, Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict should be explained this or that way. I fear still it hasn't been done. Maybe you would be so kind to propose your explanation?
mikegriffith1 wrote:
20 Nov 2021 15:53
Until relatively recently, Palestinian books and newspapers spoke approvingly of Hitler and carried brazenly anti-Semitic cartoons. This only stopped when this revolting propaganda began to draw international attention.
Do you suggest that alleged anti-Semitic cartoons and positive articles about Hitler are (at least partly) caused Israeli war crimes?
mikegriffith1 wrote:
20 Nov 2021 15:53
If the Palestinians controlled the West Bank, it would be the same miserable, terrorist-coddling mess that we see in Gaza. More Palestinians have been killed by radical Palestinians than have ever been killed by real or imagined Israeli war crimes.
I prefer not to discuss current political events, possible future political events or the moderators would indeed lock the thread.
mikegriffith1 wrote:
20 Nov 2021 15:53
The Palestinians would have a larger homeland today if they had not rejected the UN's 1947 partition plan, a plan that the Jews accepted. But, the Palestinians were so certain that their Arab brothers could drive the Jews into the sea, that they rejected the plan and welcomed the arrival of the invading Arab armies. Yet, lo and behold, the Jews, though vastly outnumbered, defeated the Arab armies and justifiably drove most Palestinians from their homes.
Do you suppose that Israeli war crimes happened because the Arabs rejected UN's 1947 partition plan?
mikegriffith1 wrote:
20 Nov 2021 15:53
Sorry, when you reject a fair partition plan and invite Arab armies to come wipe out the Jews, you have no right to complain when those same Jews are in no mood to forget your treachery and allow you to stay.
Your remark is related to the theme of the thread. Fair partition plan could be implemented at any moment and as a result there would not be war crimes.

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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by PrudentRegret » 21 Nov 2021 02:59

James Bamford, bestselling author and journalist, has suggested that the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was motivated by a desire to conceal its concurrent war crimes against Egyptian POWs and UN peacekeepers.

More recently, the Chicago Tribune did an excellent investigation in an article, New revelations in attack on American spy ship:
The Johnson administration did not publicly dispute Israel's claim that the attack had been nothing more than a disastrous mistake. But internal White House documents obtained from the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library show that the Israelis' explanation of how the mistake had occurred was not believed.

Except for McNamara, most senior administration officials from Secretary of State Dean Rusk on down privately agreed with Johnson's intelligence adviser, Clark Clifford, who was quoted in minutes of a National Security Council staff meeting as saying it was "inconceivable" that the attack had been a case of mistaken identity.

The attack "couldn't be anything else but deliberate," the NSA's director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress.

"I don't think you'll find many people at NSA who believe it was accidental," Benson Buffham, a former deputy NSA director, said in an interview.

"I just always assumed that the Israeli pilots knew what they were doing," said Harold Saunders, then a member of the National Security Council staff and later assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern and South Asian affairs.

"So for me, the question really is who issued the order to do that and why? That's the really interesting thing."
The article does not mince words in completely rejecting the theory that the attack was a case of mistaken identity, and the motive of the attack is what remains a mystery today.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2021 03:35

My question to the Forum administration:

Is an entire thread like this, beyond the scope of WWII or even WWI history, allowed on AHF?

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 21 Nov 2021 06:26

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
21 Nov 2021 03:35
My question to the Forum administration:

Is an entire thread like this, beyond the scope of WWII or even WWI history, allowed on AHF?
It is an interesting question and I'm waiting for comment from the Forum administration.
At the same time apparently US (with allies) war in Vietnam is not related to WW2 in any way. However we see some threads opened on this section of AHF dedicated to that war.
From my point of view the very creation of the state of Israel is closely connected to the Holocaust disaster and there is a lot of threads where events in Israel, in the ME are being discussed. For example

Israel harvested organs in '90s
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=161203&p=1410964&hi ... l#p1410964
Israel has admitted that in the 1990s, its forensic pathologists harvested organs from dead bodies, including Palestinians, without permission of their families
The Israeli human organ harvesting scandal was revealed by Swedish freelance journalist Donald Bostrom when he began to investigate United Nations employees concerns that Israeli soldiers snatch Palestinian children in the middle of the night, murder them, and sell their organs.[1] Bostrom ran the story in Aftonbladet, Sweden's leading tabloid newspaper.[2] The translated headline of the article read "They plunder the organs of our sons".

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2021 08:14

snpol wrote:
21 Nov 2021 06:26
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
21 Nov 2021 03:35
My question to the Forum administration:

Is an entire thread like this, beyond the scope of WWII or even WWI history, allowed on AHF?
It is an interesting question and I'm waiting for comment from the Forum administration.
At the same time apparently US (with allies) war in Vietnam is not related to WW2 in any way. However we see some threads opened on this section of AHF dedicated to that war.
From my point of view the very creation of the state of Israel is closely connected to the Holocaust disaster and there is a lot of threads where events in Israel, in the ME are being discussed. For example

Israel harvested organs in '90s
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=161203&p=1410964&hi ... l#p1410964
Israel has admitted that in the 1990s, its forensic pathologists harvested organs from dead bodies, including Palestinians, without permission of their families
The Israeli human organ harvesting scandal was revealed by Swedish freelance journalist Donald Bostrom when he began to investigate United Nations employees concerns that Israeli soldiers snatch Palestinian children in the middle of the night, murder them, and sell their organs.[1] Bostrom ran the story in Aftonbladet, Sweden's leading tabloid newspaper.[2] The translated headline of the article read "They plunder the organs of our sons".
My fear is that if this continues and then people like me feel the compulsion to respond to the sob stories about "Arab attacks on Israelis" , hell will break loose.. Accusations of "anti semitism" will fly thick and the inevitable will happen.. Kinda loaded and unfair.

Vietnam threads at least don't beget that kinda loaded dice.

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 21 Nov 2021 09:44

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
21 Nov 2021 08:14
My fear is that if this continues and then people like me feel the compulsion to respond to the sob stories about "Arab attacks on Israelis" , hell will break loose.. Accusations of "anti semitism" will fly thick and the inevitable will happen.. Kinda loaded and unfair.

Vietnam threads at least don't beget that kinda loaded dice.
I believe that Israel should be treated as other countries - the USA. the UK, France, Russia, Germany, China, Japan... It's essentially important just to avoid political discussions. That's all.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2021 13:25

snpol wrote:
21 Nov 2021 09:44
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
21 Nov 2021 08:14
My fear is that if this continues and then people like me feel the compulsion to respond to the sob stories about "Arab attacks on Israelis" , hell will break loose.. Accusations of "anti semitism" will fly thick and the inevitable will happen.. Kinda loaded and unfair.

Vietnam threads at least don't beget that kinda loaded dice.
I believe that Israel should be treated as other countries - the USA. the UK, France, Russia, Germany, China, Japan... It's essentially important just to avoid political discussions. That's all.
Political discussions. Issue is these days even "Personal is political".. So how can war and war crimes not become "political"?

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2021 13:26

snpol wrote:
21 Nov 2021 09:44
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
21 Nov 2021 08:14
My fear is that if this continues and then people like me feel the compulsion to respond to the sob stories about "Arab attacks on Israelis" , hell will break loose.. Accusations of "anti semitism" will fly thick and the inevitable will happen.. Kinda loaded and unfair.

Vietnam threads at least don't beget that kinda loaded dice.
I believe that Israel should be treated as other countries - the USA. the UK, France, Russia, Germany, China, Japan... It's essentially important just to avoid political discussions. That's all.
Political discussions. Issue is these days even "Personal is political".. So how can war and war crimes not become "political"?

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 21 Nov 2021 17:20

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
21 Nov 2021 13:25
Political discussions. Issue is these days even "Personal is political".. So how can war and war crimes not become "political"?
So how it is possible to separate discussion about war crimes from political discussion?
If one mentions political decisions that intentionally violate human rights and constitute war crime then only factual side of respective story should be discussed. For example
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html
The tactic of demolition is not new to the Israeli army. In its attempt to put down Palestinian opposition to its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the army has fully or partly destroyed 489 homes since 1989, according to B'tselem, an Israeli human rights organization.
It has sealed off with cinder blocks or steel plates 416 more houses, preventing either part or all of the house from being used, according to B'tselem.
The Israeli army now wants to blow up the Nazal family house, leaving homeless Nazal's parents, their nine children, a pregnant daughter-in-law and a grandson, age 2.
Nazal's father, Abdel Rahim As-Souwi Nazal, says that his son has not lived at the house for seven months and that he does not support attacks on civilians.
"If it is possible to deter a potential terrorist by sealing or destroying his house, we will prefer damage to property," said Lt. Col. Moshe Fogel, a spokesman for the army.
However a lawyer Eliyahu Avraham apparently disagreed
"A central principle of the Jewish people is that the person who commits a crime is the one who is punished" Mr. Avraham told Israel Radio. "A son doesn't carry the crime of his father, the father doesn't carry the crimes of his son."
A lot of details could be found here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_d ... n_property
but only demolitions happened in 20th century should be scrutinized while ones happened in 21st century are matter of political discussion that we should avoid.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Nov 2021 17:54

Before getting into the minutiae, I have a simple proposition which I would like to lay out :

My distant ancestors, the nomadic Aryan tribes, migrated from the steppes of central Europe to India. Now a group of us blokes citing political persecution at home, reverse migrate to some tract in Central Europe and raise settlements. Then we run riot and demand a separate Indian-Aryan homeland there. Then through a convoluted process, countries A, B,C, D, none of them with a skin in the game, pass a dictat that this piece of land is to be snatched from guys living there for many centuries to cater to our demand.

Then the locals rise in revolt and a war starts. I and my pals, in self righteous indignation, do anything and everything in the book and out of it, to hold on to our spoils .. and chuck the locals out. If they don't go easy, we obliterate them. All the time quoting our thousands of years old entitlement and the snowballing sympathy that goes with it. No one mentions that the inhabitants we displaced from their land were guilty of nothing. They hadn't caused the misery that we harp on 24 X7..

Over a period of time, with the help of those States A, B, C, D we consolidate and claim that there was no race X ever living here and these rebels are riff raff from neighbouring places, trying to muscle in.

No war, or war crime in the ME can be discussed, without addressing this riddle.

Cheers
Sandeep

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 21 Nov 2021 20:02

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
21 Nov 2021 17:54
Before getting into the minutiae, I have a simple proposition which I would like to lay out :

My distant ancestors, the nomadic Aryan tribes, migrated from the steppes of central Europe to India. Now a group of us blokes citing political persecution at home, reverse migrate to some tract in Central Europe and raise settlements. Then we run riot and demand a separate Indian-Aryan homeland there. Then through a convoluted process, countries A, B,C, D, none of them with a skin in the game, pass a dictat that this piece of land is to be snatched from guys living there for many centuries to cater to our demand.

Then the locals rise in revolt and a war starts. I and my pals, in self righteous indignation, do anything and everything in the book and out of it, to hold on to our spoils .. and chuck the locals out. If they don't go easy, we obliterate them. All the time quoting our thousands of years old entitlement and the snowballing sympathy that goes with it. No one mentions that the inhabitants we displaced from their land were guilty of nothing. They hadn't caused the misery that we harp on 24 X7..

Over a period of time, with the help of those States A, B, C, D we consolidate and claim that there was no race X ever living here and these rebels are riff raff from neighbouring places, trying to muscle in.

No war, or war crime in the ME can be discussed, without addressing this riddle.

Cheers
Sandeep
I doubt that Marathi people will move to central Europe anytime soon. So your example is rather abstract as the Marathis have onw homeland in India. Btw, (no doubt you are well aware about it) Bene Israel - Marathi speaking followers of Judaism emigrated to Israel long ago in big numbers.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Nov 2021 03:16

Why "Marathi" people alone? Indians, except indigenous Dravidian stock, come from Central European Aryan descent What I said sounds abstract because it didn't happen in reality. But the logic is the same.
The entire immigration crisis in the west today should be juxtaposed with the series of historical Aliyah Bets as a metaphor. Problem is that the Jewish migrations to Palestine didn't pinch Europeans / Americans in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It was happening in a remote place on the map. No one gave a damn. But the Palestinians felt the same as many people in the west feel now. And then those Palestinians who saw red, and were called dirty names at that time, were later proved right, when their land was taken away.
The entire ME crisis has to be studied with this backdrop in mind

Cheers
Sandeep

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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by Dili » 22 Nov 2021 03:52

What a hell is this topic doing here?

snpol
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Re: Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict

Post by snpol » 22 Nov 2021 05:09

Dili wrote:
22 Nov 2021 03:52
What a hell is this topic doing here?
I believe that Israeli war crimes during the ME conflict is an important issue worth to be investigated to find their direct and indirect links to the Holocaust. I invite you to express your opinion in this context or/and contribute to the thread with factual information.
As any other topic this one could cause discussion that involves wide range of themes including abstract questions about migration processes, examples of migration during human history and current events related to migration.
I would like to note that as it is historical apolitical forum then political discussion is not acceptable. I believe that currents events should not be discussed as well.
Theoretical questions sometimes might sound interesting but without real examples they are mainly pointless.

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